Surely some of you have heard that New York is considering making a BSN degree mandatory in order to practice in that state. Given the nursing shortage and shortage of RN grads of any type what do you think about their plans?
"They care for us when we're sick and injured... Just how much schooling should a registered nurse have to keep his or her certification? New York State is now thinking about requiring that R.N.’s earn a Bachelor's degree...."
Full article: http://medi-smart.com/topnews3.htm
I hadn't heard about New York but have heard that story before from other states or hospitals. I don't think it can/will happen. I have a BSN but at my hospital I get nothing at all extra for it. There are many great nurses that have diplomas or ADN. The BSN gives you some extra school and clinical time (not even that much clinical time now with all the online learning) but the extra experience of working is what makes the good nurse. I know somoene that went right from highschool (never worked at even McD's) got there MSN and was hired as nurse manager of a unit...24 yrs old with no experience other than school how is that person going to manage let alone function. They put in how many caths, started how many IV's, gave how many shots and actually had how much total care of any patient going straight through school? I think the powers that be just want to make more rules.
See someone asks a question and I get to running on
I grad from a diploma program. Most BS programs in my area do not give near as much clinical training as the diploma program I went through. What are they going to do with the diploma nurses that have worked for 10 years. You mean if I retire in 9 years I still have to go back to school to keep my career and profession. I teach new grad BS degree nurses. I hope they have a grandfather clause to this new law to take in consideration experience.
why is it that both of you got it right, on the first try. What are the odds that 100% of the replies so far (only 2) can get it right so easily, but the powers that be put their heads together and come up with something so ludicris?
I'll actually keep my opinion to myself on this one....but must tell you they were saying that they were going to do this nationwide when I was in school....I graduated in 1977!!
HI WR , I'm glad to see you back! Hey, the FCC isn't breathing down our necks here to the best of my knowledge (yet) so I think we can say the actual word still....
p*ss.. = piss! There, I said it!
*Waits for lightning to strike her*
Tell me, what other profession has 3 different educational programs, allowing people to practice in that field with 3 distinct levels of training and curriculae? The problem nursing has had all along with recognition as a profession and self-empowerment is this inherent infighting regarding the minimum qualifications for education.
The statements above are correct, i.e. BSN trained RNs have less clinical training. But, without a doubt, BSN RNs have a more rounded education, receive more in the way of physiology, disease process, psychoscocial skills and by far out perform new ADNs and diploma nurses in critical thinking skills.
Architects don't have this crazy, inconsistent educational requirement for licensure. Neither do doctors, lawyers, psychologists, social workers, physical therapists, etc.
It's nurses who keep nursing down. We need a standard 4 year program for professional nursing.
The statements above are correct, i.e. BSN trained RNs have less clinical training. But, without a doubt, BSN RNs have a more rounded education, receive more in the way of physiology, disease process, psychoscocial skills and by far out perform new ADNs and diploma nurses in critical thinking skills
I resemble that...I think I was pretty much a critical thinker before I ever considered nursing school. I know lots of ADN nurses that are more "critical thinkers" then BSN nurses (yes I have a BSN also) I don't think that sailing or bowling class for my BSN did me a darn bit of good as a nurse but basically wasted my time to be "well rounded"
We do have a standard test for nursing maybe they should grade it on the curve with higher scores making the better wage..oh that would only give the good test takers a better wage not the better nurse.
The 4 yr BSN for all has been kicked around for a long time if you think you work short now go for that one.
I don't believe a blanket statement like this is accurate. In my OB rotaion (BSN) we had 8 weeks of clinical. Half days. #1 Orientation, tour of OB sylabus
#2 Snow day no school
#3 School holiday
#4 Clinical day.. I saw a delivery. She had an epidural I watched. Coulda stayed down on the farm for that.
#5 Instructer on Vacation
#6 See #5
#7 Test what did we learn to be tested on??
#8 It was so awesome I can't even remember it.
Please don't say that one group gets more of anything than the other. As for critical thinking I don't believe that can be taught any more than being an artist.
I do agree that we need to have one entry to professional nursing. I believe in order for nursing to be considered an profession it should be a four year degree.
How can you have any critical thinking skills if you've never encountered anything to critcally think about?
JMHO
WR,,, three commas for Becca
BTW In my Adult Health course I hung one unit of blood and instructed another male nurse on how to insert a foley on a combative old man.
Cass I loved my "Entry to Professional Nursing" Class.. I almost got kicked out.. I asked point blank why we needed all thses foolish classes. Art where the instructor gave us all the answers.. I don't think he had tenure. He needed us to pass so he could keep his job.. LOLL
I actually wrote a paper "To BSN or not to BSN"..Got an A. It was a good paper.. And one other pupil ( I use pupil on purpose) said we could use our communications course to talk to people..I asked them if they knew anything about gutting a deer.. See I don't think Yuppies end up in the hospital. The eat well, jog, don't smoke ( by in large). The people we take care of won't know a Monet from the Cat in the Hat.
We need to get on the level with our patients to understand them and communicate with them.. I love to hear some nurses explain beta blockers..LOLLL
The people we take care of won't know a Monet from the Cat in the Hat
The majority of my OB patients do watch cartoons during labor...but we've talked about the teenagers and spectator sports before.
I don't remember much of my BSN classes except Critical Care was pretty good. We did group tests. We were put into groups of 4-6 with me probably being the weakest link as I was general peds then. Me, and nurses from ICU, CCU, MS. I did have some input but the majority of the class was that Critical Care stuff (oh that was the class there was a little peds)
Transition class..don't remember
Research...bad instructor still instructing
Management..sat in on interview for NA, did that units big presentation for Joint coming as they were too busy working to do a presentation and watched the manager watch monitors because they were short handed.
Community Health that was ok (guess it might have helped some for my years in home health chasing around teenage moms who were never around) We did a healthy people 2000 presentation, we mapped stats and I was the only one from the city so I knew where all the streets were so I got to stick pins in a big map.
Good thing my hospital was paying for my BSN cause it was pretty much a waste of money
I think if there was a required BSN to be a Nurse you'd find a SERIOUS shortage of nurses in short order. The field isn't paying enough as it is. Our local hospital will give you a piddly 5% more per hour if you have a BSN - how sad. Not much of a motivator to get your BSN is it?
my hospital give you a piddly 0% more. They will pay for your classes go get it. They did have the clinical ladder but it was a pain in the butt to do so nobody did it for a % more. There is talk of doing it again but changing the system.
Oh yes, our hospital will pay for your classes too but only if you are a fulltime employee (which is kind of funny if you think about it - who, working fulltime can find yet more time to take classes). Hehe
I worked 4 ten hour days. I worked every other Saturday in a dialysis unit 0700-1700 hours then went home changed my uniform and worked 1900-0700 Sat and Sunday nite. A total of 64 hours a week.. 40 in the dialysis unit and 24 at the hospital. I was an LPN..I actually made money going to school then.. The dialysis unit paid up front up to 3000 per year and the hospital up to 1000 reimbursed. I was full time for both of them..loll For a full year with a 10 year old son to raise.
The classes I took that first summer: Pathophisology, Chemistry and Nutrition. All toward my BSN.
When I went back to school full time I worked every weekend and every Thursday 12's and took 12 credits both Spring and Fall. I got my BSN with a Minor in Poly SCI..
You might be preaching to the choir here Jeanne..
It can be done you just have to decide ya wanna.
By the way I went back to full time classes as I stated two paragraphs above after spending 17 days in the hospital with DVT.. I got out on 21 Dec and started classes on 5 January.
As I said before, it's nurses who keep nursing down. Some whine that we don't make enough money. Why should an ADN make the same as a BSN? How can you expect the world to take us seriously as a profession when we don't maintain educational standards - nursing shortage notwithstanding.
I couldn't agree with you more..Especially when nurses join unions... When our individual voice is taken away from us it does bring down our profession.. And I believe enlightened BSN's won't join unions...JMHO...
Does your union require every nurse in the hospital to pay dues whether they want union representation or not?
Does your union require every nurse to go on strike even if they voted to NOT strike?
Inquiring minds want to know..
WR,,, three commas for Becca
I believe BSN educated nurses will speak for themselves wonderfully.
Yes, I agree some BSN requirements(or BS/BA degrees for that matter) have some courses that weren't worth taking. I'd rather be doing practicums or hands-on training than taking more courses.
I came across this article that might explain the NY situation. I know this link may not explain everything but it's just interesting to read:
I remember when i was a Jr. in highschool, my mom was going back for her BSN because in 5years all states were going to require it. I graduated highschool in 1978, and still on occasion hear...in 5 years all states are going to require, and thus far, just North Dakota requires a BSN.
Hey WR - direct you're anti-nurse union diatribe to the appropriate board. This is discussion about mandatory BSN. Additionally - as I stated in the other board - you are not qualified to even post comments on nursing unions.
This is one topic that no one will ever agree upon. Bottom line is, we all went into the nursing field for a lot of the same reasons and for a lot of different ones. Each of us who is licensed to write RN after our names took and passed the same state test. We entered the field of Nursing with what our state deemed to be the minimal knowledge needed to practice our profession safely.
I've always said, and will always say, that most of what I learned in and about nursing, I learned on the job after I graduated.
I'll put my 25 years as an ADN against any new BSN, any day of the week. There's book smarts, then there's street smarts. Who do you want taking care of your mother, your child, yourself?
I worked with the valedictorian of Radford University School of Nursing who crushed and crammed a Mycelex troche down a surgically placed dobbhoff.....and could relay countless "you'll-never-believe-this" stories from all walks of the medical profession, BSN, Diploma, ADN, LPN, RT, PT, and get this MD'S (nahhhhh....)
Long story short, I don't think it's where you START your nursing career that matters, I think it's all about the paths and journeys you take DURING your career.....
I agree in the theory. It would not hurt the profession. But right now we have such a shortage that I hope a 4 year degree can keep up with the demands. I think only about 25% of the nurses have a BSN. Like can we afford to exclude the remaining nurses from practicing nursing? I am not sure that we have enough RN's with advanced degrees to even teach in the nursing programs geared for BSN's or the students interested in attending one. They better figure that out before they move forward with the plans. I mean they have to take into consideration if this is going to help the big picture. In light of the work that we do is it really necessary to have 4 years of education? I dont think so. I think it is beneficial in management and teaching positions. But clinically I think most RN's develop their skills and knowledge depending on which area they select. Take me for example, I have a 4 year degree. I have no experience and only limited knowledge about dialysis, I would see no reason for a company to hire me just because I have a degree over an ADN or a diploma nurse & I dont see how I could perform the job better than an ADN or a diploma nurse. If NY follows through with their plans, they will multiply their nursing shortage issues dont ya think?
Actually there are many who say we don't have a nursing shortage in the country. We have a shortage of nurses who are not practicing nursing. That is the problem according to them.
Whenever something is changed there will be "growing pains". And many times the result is not anticipated. Do seat belts save money?? Maybe in the short haul they do. We don't have people in wheelchairs. etc. But all those people who might have been killed in automobile accidents will use resources, oil, food, and at some point Medicare..So have seatbelts really saved the country money?? Think about it.
I believe there should be only one way to become an RN. I believe we should go for the highest level in that endevour. BSN. Yes, I am BSN educated and I was against getting that BSN but at the time I went to school it actually was the shorter way for me. As I would have had to wait 2 years to get back into and ADN upward LPN course. Yes, I was an LPN for 17 years.. The problem is that we have to start somewhere. Many nurses who go to ADN programs end up taking more than 2 years to complete their programs. Many take one or two courses at a time. Most instructors here in the East anyway have to have an MSN to teach in an ADN program anyway so that doesn't seem to be an issue. Yes, many BSN programs require Ph.D's.. But if all RN's had to be BSN educated then we would have half the battle to them being instructors..
The problem with lack of instructors is not advanced degree requirements but the piss poor pay.. To be truthful..Many instructors have to work staff jobs in order to put food on the table. That is shameful.. And a person with a Ph.D in nursing shouldn't have to work a part time job. Again pay people what they are worth and they will come to work for you.
As for dialysis we have technicians ( who by the way are wonderful needed and very very good) doing dialysis. A BSN is not a req to do dialysis.. A good RN is...
Most BSN's don't even make more money than ADN's so that won't be a problem.. I just think that we need to unite nurses not divide them
Heck I think we should have a National License too. Any nurse who took the old boards has enough experience now to work in any state and should be able to have a National License and the rest of us all took the same test.
Tho I will agree there are positions for the RN in general, the AND and the BSN that should not be filled by any other class of nurse. Administration is the quickest thing coming to mind, this should require BSN.
That aside, there is need for more LPNs, no one here has mentioned LPNs. One does not need a BSN to staff a unit. LPNs and any assortment of RNs can and should be staffing units. Not solely nurses whose education has largely trained them for management (BSN).
It is a waste of ever shrinking funds to overstaff a unit.
No, an LPN right out of school can not handle the same pt load an experienced RN can. But give the LPN the experience and resourses and she/he can care for that pt load just as well as an RN can.
Just because the state law says the LPN can not spike blood, does not mean the LPN does not completely understand the proccess of who/what/when/where/why it is hung and what the expected outcome is, what to do if reaction, etc. So, why pay an RN to do it? Seems like a horrible waste of money to me.
It is a myth that only BSN prepared nurse are trained for Management. I took one 2 credit course. Hardly adequate to be in management.
I was an LPN for 17 years so I have no problem with them. The problem lies when an LPN has 6-8 patients and the RN has 6-8 patients and the RN is ultimately responsible for all 12-16. And it was a pain in the arse when I had to bug an RN to do something for me that I couldn't do. It's nice when every one can to evey thing.. Yes, I know utopia.
The nurse manager I have right now is the best boss I've ever had and guess what she has a BSN and a MBA. I could be that she was a wonderful nurse in the first place. Luckily I haven't had bad manager some better then others though and I don't think any have had MSN.
There has been much discussion about requiring nurses to have there BSN'S and doing away with LPN'S for several years. I am a BSN. I taught in the PN programs. I believe strongly there is a place for all of us. I believe strongly that 75% of nursing is common sense and the other 25% is the technical skills. I have found that true so many times. As a Director of nurses in various settings, it has been my experience that I have had LPN's who could work circles around RN'S, 2 and 3 year RN's who could do the same of BSN's and RN's and BSN's who were top notch themselves. I have realized that if I become the patient or my child were to become a patient, I don't care what your tittle is, I want to know that the nurse taking care of us can save our lives if it became necessary. This kind of division is what keeps our profession from being strong and forceful. We should lift each other up instead of being divided. Every nurse, no matter what his/her educational background, contributes to the betterment of our profession and must be respected and valued. The type of nurses we should be rejecting and attempt to eliminate are those nurses who seek to destroy others for selfish gains and really don't concern themselves with what nursing is really all about. Cannon.
The idea that BSN grads have better "critical thinking skills" is absurd. Just to get an idea of what exactly "critical thinking skills" are, I did a search online. What a joke! I saw descriptions of these "thinkers" as possessing an inquisitive mind. So what? Lots of people possess inquisitive minds without having to pat themselves on the back about it. Flipping through these articles on so called "nursing theory" I was reminded of the time I picked up a textbook my sister had when she was studying for an MBA. I was stunned by the beginning of a paragraph about marketing. It actually said, "Different people are motivated by different things". I remember wondering how it could be possible to get credit towards a Masters Degree by learning what is so patently obvious to most people. The same goes for nursing. As far as dismissing clinical training as less important than theory, thinking skills, etc, I just read in AdvanceNurse that some 75% of new grads report being involved in medication errors within their first six months of practice. This was a study of both AD and BSN grads. That is an alarming number. I wonder how many other professions train their graduates so poorly. And just what will these nurses say to the patients they've harmed, or on a witness stand in a malpractice suit? Does anyone think that a nurse can get away with claiming that he/she may not have learned the most basic skills of safe practice while in school, but he/she is a great thinker? Instead of the usual navel gazing nusing does it might be better for nurse educators to think about nursing's responsibilities to the public at large. Maybe it is time for nursing to adopt the adage, "first do no harm".
I am currently at ADN nurse I have 9 month left to go and I will have my BSN. I think that it is stupid to make it mandatory for all nurse to have their BSN. In my BSN coarse, I have had very little and I do mean very little clinical experience. My ADN program was a lot of hands on. I work with some nurse that went and got their BSN and skipped the ADN portion and they have told me that they are mostly trained for management. That they have had very little clinical experience. What kind of nurses will we have with limited clinical training? We are in the midst of one of the worse nurses shortage in history. Is it a good idean to make nurses go to school for 4 years instead of two? Whoever is thinking of this law must have never needed to go to the hospital and have their nurse taking care of 12 other patients. The hospital that I work at is lucky at night to have one RN to a unit. Our medical unit has 32 beds and is usually staffed with one RN and the rest LPN.
If they would attach mandatory BSN wage guidelines that are significantly higher that they pay ADNs, it would be a start.
In most facilities now you get paid the same whether you are a Diploma, ADN, AAS or BSN or MSN for that matter. Most pay scales are based on years of experience, not education.
Otherwise you'll force a lot of vital ADN programs out of business in the middle of the worst nursing shortage we've seen in generations. We need all the graduates our schools can produce right now.
I am a LPN. I studied fine arts in college. My hobbies are politics and philosophy. I have very artistic handwriting. I am well acquainted with classical music and literature. I am familiar with psychology from helping my first husband study for his Ph.d. I have lived in other cultures. My second husband was Pakistani and I know a lot about Islam.
I think a well rounded education is a good thing for a nurse or for a doctor.
But I think that technical knowledge is the most important thing for a doctor or nurse to have. I have pushed IV drugs. I have started many IVs. I can draw blood and run a small lab.
I became a LPN in 1983. All that I have ever heard since then is that nursing will become a profession and LPNs or those with less than a BSN will be eliminated.
I am all for nursing becoming a respected profession. I work with a NP whom I respect as much as any physician with whom I have worked.
I have no objection with the BSN becoming the standard of education for a nurse. If I am ever hospitalized, it will mean a lot to me to discuss Kierkegaard with the nurse starting my IV. I would love it if the person giving me the bed pan could speak to me of Nietzsche. I would love to discuss Mozart with my respiratory therapist.
99.9.999% of my patients have never heard of Kierkegaard or Nietzsche and barely of Mozart. I could not care less. Most of the doctors I encounter cannot intelligently discuss philosophy.
I think it is wonderful to elevate the profession of nursing.
But what is education in the wake of kindness and a soft touch? How can you replace knowledge with skill?
When I was in LPN school, we helped out some lost BSN graduates who had no clinical experience and who had probably never heard of Spinoza or Kierkegaard or Nietzsche.
I have a lot of respect for RNs. I have known many excellent RNs. I would hate to have to have a RN come behind me to start an IV or to push a drug or change a trach. I don't think that is fair to LPN or RN.
Like any trained monkey, I could be taught to do any of these things. I have done them.
It is my opinion that there should be only one level of nurse.
If the BSN is to be considered the standard, grandfather in all LPNs and diploma and associate degree RNs with five years experience.
The problem with this is that most young people are not willing to get a four year degree to empty bed pans.
As an LPN who went on for their BSN, all I can say is.....What the...! Not everyone has the time, inclination, or especially the MONEY to afford going on. I worked FULL time, as well as attended school FULL time the last 2 semesters AND the summer between these semesters. That is not including the classes I needed to finish up the needed courses. I have worked with LPN's and Diploma nurses who could run circles around higher degreed nurses. I hate to say this, but the degree doesn't always make the nurse. 'Cat'
WOW!! What head spinning discussion about ADN/BSN practice. I will be graduating in 3 months with my ADN and currently am an LPN with almost 5 years experience at a LTC facility. I myself chose to pursue this avenue becasue I did get the experience this way, which I felt was very important. I hope to pursue future education but not immediately.
I myself have always felt the shunning of my status and thought when I achieve my ADN I will no longer have to deal with the insults of my LPN status. (No, I am not pursueing my ADN just for status.) Well, now I am feeling the pressures of obtaining my BSN to be a "real nurse" according to some people.
On the discussion of wage. I make more than some graduate nurses in acute care setting, irregardless if ADN or BSN. So if wage was my drive .....try again. My dream is to work in an ACS and I will be taking a pay cut when I leave my current employer. (On top of the vacation and health benefits.) If wage were the issue I truly would be better off staying where I'm at.
On the discussion of duties. At my LTC facility if an RN calls in, I (an LPN) fill in for them. It is called charge LPN. Yes, I understand that the roles of a LTC facility vs. ACS range incredibly, I am not debating that. We actually joke at my job that LPN's are "low paid nurses." As our facility is now using them just like RN's. We preform all duties that the RN does except iv's or blood draws. As you can see they will never get rid of LPN's at my facility simply related to the wage issue. I'm talking alot of staffing issues here. My facility has 4 buildings with 200+ residents per building and over 1000 staff members. Yes, it is a state facility.
I guess bottom line is many aspects (wage, role) of nursing (LPN, ADN, BSN) depend on experience and where you work and what they expect. I, an LPN, have stared wide eyed and baffled about some skills or information some BSN's have stated during times when they are the decision maker and I direct them in what avenue to take. VERY SCAREY!!
WOW!! What head spinning discussion about ADN/BSN practice. I will be graduating in 3 months with my ADN and currently am an LPN with almost 5 years experience at a LTC facility. I myself chose to pursue this avenue becasue I did get the experience this way, which I felt was very important. I hope to pursue future education but not immediately.
I did the LPN route for experience, also. The local community College's ADN program leaves quite a bit to be desired, though.
It took me about 15 years after getting my LPN for me to go on.....
There is no way this could be pulled off either by a state or nationally, without grandfathering in "a lot" of practicing nurses (like a 50-70%).
It would essentially make the ADN programs nationwide worthless. Keeping in mind they are producing the majority of nurses these days, I don't see anything like this going through this generation.
XYpicuRN wrote:Hey WR - direct you're anti-nurse union diatribe to the appropriate board. This is discussion about mandatory BSN. Additionally - as I stated in the other board - you are not qualified to even post comments on nursing unions.
What appropriate board would you, in your infinite wisdom, suggest. What board did I discuss unions on with you. What makes you the expert?
nursinghumor wrote:There is no way this could be pulled off either by a state or nationally, without grandfathering in "a lot" of practicing nurses (like a 50-70%).
It would essentially make the ADN programs nationwide worthless. Keeping in mind they are producing the majority of nurses these days, I don't see anything like this going through this generation.
Where do you get the stats? 50-70%? Can you cite your source. Actually, that's been the plan all along. LOL
Most of the diploma schools have been "rendered worthless" and nursing has survived. I see more and more job advertisements for BSN.
Why would nursing want to relegate itself to less than a professional status? It takes a Master's now for entry to PT. Why would nurses want to be the lowest educated medical group in the hospital. And still demand respect?
I think that its crap to REQUIRE nurses to be BSN. IF thats the case then there should be no ADN programs! And most hospitals dont even differentiate between ADN and BSN nurses in terms of floor nurses. At my hospital your badges are the same (Registered Nurse- nothing more nothing less), your pay is the same, your hours are the same, responsibilities are the same, and most importantly.... ITS NOT EVEN KNOWN IF YOUR A BSN OR ADN!!! Nobody even knows this kind of thing (or cares) unless you tell them. In addition to this... the BSN program closest to the hospital I work at was up for losing their accredidation last year. However, our community college RN grads beat Johns Hopkins University in pass rates! So.....
Now... this is not to say that nurses should not want to strive to further their education! I personally feel that you never "know it all" and that you should always be in the market for (be open to the idea of) furthering your education. However, I think it sucks that to go from an RN to BSN where I live it would cost a minimum of 16k. Now... the hospital only gives tuition reimbursement up to 3k a year. So... it makes sense that if I'm going to spend this amount of money furthering my education for the sole purpose of satisfying my state, then they should pay me more! Right? Yes i think so!!
It is my plan to complete my BSN eventually... in fact I already have completed the gen ed requirements so all I have left are 18 credits worth of management classes. And I will do it because then I would like to get my masters... however please note! Management classes... yes thats right. Not extra clinical or theory.... or critical thinking skills classes (not that there are such a thing but i noticed someone posted that BSN's have more critical thinking skills.... as if its a class or something...)
:oHi,
It is too bad that the area where you are working does not differentiate between ADN and BSN. I live in the mid-west and the hospitals in this area (I have been a traveler for the last two years so I have been several places)
do put BSN on the name tags and they pay the nurses more. I just took a permanent position and I am paid more for my BSN. I am grateful because I worked long and hard to get it and am still paying back Uncle Sam. I am 52 and have been a perennial student, LPN-ADN-BSN and now I will have my masters next year. I have been a nurse for 34 years and they have been tossing mandatory BSN entry level around for years. The ANCC is pushing harder now and the magnet status is affecting it also.
If nursing is ever to attain the respect it deserves this issue will need to be settled. We are the only profession, yes, we are a profession, that has so many different layers.
I remember expressing the same things you are writing and I did the same thing that you are doing-keep going back to school. Good for you! I wish you the best in your endeavors for both your BSN and MSN.
GOD bless you,
Wilma Woodford
Profession by the broadest definition of the English language is a vocation that requires considerable training and specialzed education. Profession
In my opinion the myopic view of a Profession is a vocation that has autonomy and a terminal level degree system. My belief is that currently nursing does not have either of those things that make it a true proffesion.
It is the professional who labores as a nurse due to the lacking of autonomy and agreed upon terminal degree system. Professional
I find it hard to rationalize that a vocation that has a wide variety of entry level points of entry is a proffession by conventional standards. In example is one year of higher education (excluding time/years of experience) the same as six years of higher education - is the knowledge base the same for a community college graduate as a university prepared graduate...
My current feeling on the subject is that I agree with the AACN's position on the standard of higher educaiton and the terminal degree ideology.
Perhaps there will never be an agreed upon terminal degree system for nursing or a true level of autonomy; then again after centuries of history with great advancements in health care who knows what the future holds for nursing.
A shortage of nurses prepared at the baccalaureate level may be affecting health care quality and patient outcomes. In a study published in the September 24, 2003 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) , Dr. Linda Aiken and her colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania identified a clear link between higher levels of nursing education and better patient outcomes. This extensive study found that surgical patients have a "substantial survival advantage" if treated in hospitals with higher proportions of nurses educated at the baccalaureate or higher degree level. In hospitals, a 10 percent increase in the proportion of nurses holding BSN degrees decreased the risk of patient death and failure to rescue by 5 percent.
I choose to believe that nursing will eventually become autonomous and in fact have an agreed upon entry level system. Nursing has finally began to move away from the hospitals and clinics as the primary engine behind the vocation, so I am hopeful that nursing can stand on its collective two feet and be an independent Allied Health Care Profession.
Perhaps proffesion is the professional spelling ... Please ignore the correct spelling in post just above your attempt to point out your depth of knowledge and experience on this topic. Nevermind my attempt to be positive and give kudos for your point of view.
Your case has been rested for some time by the depth of your argument --
Although your point is mute considering the topic, Now I am tasked with going back and reviewing all of your posts to look for semantic typographical erros.
Thanks for the positive addition to this discussion.
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May I suggest that the two of you end this one-on-one feud, ASAP.
- MagRedC5, Site Moderator
askmeh wrote:Perhaps proffesion is the professional spelling ... Please ignore the correct spelling in post just above your attempt to point out your depth of knowledge and experience on this topic. Nevermind my attempt to be positive and give kudos for your point of view.
Your case has been rested for some time by the depth of your argument --
Although your point is mute considering the topic, Now I am tasked with going back and reviewing all of your posts to look for semantic typographical erros.
Thanks for the positive addition to this discussion.
You're welcome.
...
Be advised, this banter between the two of you on this subject matter needs to cease, NOW!
Why don't we start with safe staffing laws. California has a mandated 5-1 ratio on medsurg floors and 4-1 in the ED. I can see where they are coming from wanting people to have a BSN = more education. However, the other night, I had 11 patients on my own in the ED. I dont care how much education I have, there is no way to give safe care. Maybe if I had 4 pts I would be able to think about what I was doing and look something up if I was not sure. I have a BSN and my biggest resource in the ED is a diploma nurse of 20+ years. She has seen it all.
There’s quite a bit an animosity between a local BSN program and ADN program that I’m in. Most of the people in the BSN program are traditional students while the ADN program has mainly people who have experience in healthcare and are non-traditional students. I think this riff is caused because BSN nursing here have a sense of entitlement over the ADN nurses; however, most ADN nurses I know have been a LPN or CNA for years prior to getting their RN. To rebuff the claims that BSN nurses are better nurses one has to look no further than the Pharmacy profession to see that RPh and PharmD’s are both capable pharmacists. The same could be said about physicians who have an MD or DO.
OldSquid, that comment about the MD's and DO's remonded me about a book I read years ago: Dr. X. The doctor who wrote it said they take the same boards. Whether you are an ADN, BSN, or Diploma grad, don't WE take the same boards?
OldSquidNewNurse wrote:There’s quite a bit an animosity between a local BSN program and ADN program that I’m in. Most of the people in the BSN program are traditional students while the ADN program has mainly people who have experience in healthcare and are non-traditional students. I think this riff is caused because BSN nursing here have a sense of entitlement over the ADN nurses; however, most ADN nurses I know have been a LPN or CNA for years prior to getting their RN. To rebuff the claims that BSN nurses are better nurses one has to look no further than the Pharmacy profession to see that RPh and PharmD’s are both capable pharmacists. The same could be said about physicians who have an MD or DO.
The entry into Pharmacy is PhD now and so is physical therapy. Why would nurses want to do anything less than the rest of the team?
BTW I was an LPN for 17 years before I got my BSN. Why make it a two step process?
justatraveler wrote:The entry into Pharmacy is PhD now and so is physical therapy. Why would nurses want to do anything less than the rest of the team?
BTW I was an LPN for 17 years before I got my BSN. Why make it a two step process?
The real issue is unlike the pharmacy and PT programs is they are all taught (at least from what I know) at a University Level. So changing a program from a Masters to PhD is not a big deal when compare to shutting down community college programs. In the the others the following class just plays by a new set of rules. This is why there will be a major nurse shortage if they ever get rid of ADN programs, because nothing will be there to replace them.
I think that the standard should be set at a university level entry point for RN. The ADN could take bridge courses and earn their BSN.
I know that several states, NJ being the lastest, to enforce mandatory BSN as the entry level degree for RN. I don't know if other states will follow; however, I believe that it is a first step to increasing nursing's ability to remain competitive in the healthcare industry.
I am graduating in less than 3 months (YAAA) with my BSN, but I was in a ADN program before coming to my current college, the only reason I didn't stay in my ADN program was that the program was on probation from the state because their NCLEX pass rate wasn't good enough to meet requirements, so they put a bunch of stupid rules in place to try to raise the pass rate and ended up punishing the current students, so I got out before it was too late. Anyways, my BSN program has one of the past ANA presidents' and we are constantly hearing about how BSN nurses are better than ADN because we are better prepared, but I don't feel this way. I love the education I have got in the BSN program but I don't feel that there was more clinical time in my BSN then was in my ADN program, however in my BSN program we have more classes and lectures that focus on management, then was in the ADN program but that is it. I remember when I first got in the medical field over six years ago, the charge nurse had to be BSN prepared, but that is not true anymore, I know quite a few ADN's that charge during a shift, and are awesome at it. I don't look down on ADN prepared nurses, but I don't like to be criticized by ADN's because I have my BSN. I agree with what so many others have said, in nursing we should support one another no matter what type of degree we have instead of tearing each other apart. I would like to be paid a little more than ADN's just because BSN programs usually require more money for tuition and fees, so loans are higher, and I would like to pay my loans off before I retire (LOL). Other than the money I don't really think I deserve any special treatment or am better or worse than a ADN nurse.
syudent1010@aol.com wrote:I am graduating in less than 3 months (YAAA) with my BSN, but I was in a ADN program before coming to my current college, the only reason I didn't stay in my ADN program was that the program was on probation from the state because their NCLEX pass rate wasn't good enough to meet requirements, so they put a bunch of stupid rules in place to try to raise the pass rate and ended up punishing the current students, so I got out before it was too late. Anyways, my BSN program has one of the past ANA presidents' and we are constantly hearing about how BSN nurses are better than ADN because we are better prepared, but I don't feel this way. I love the education I have got in the BSN program but I don't feel that there was more clinical time in my BSN then was in my ADN program, however in my BSN program we have more classes and lectures that focus on management, then was in the ADN program but that is it. I remember when I first got in the medical field over six years ago, the charge nurse had to be BSN prepared, but that is not true anymore, I know quite a few ADN's that charge during a shift, and are awesome at it. I don't look down on ADN prepared nurses, but I don't like to be criticized by ADN's because I have my BSN. I agree with what so many others have said, in nursing we should support one another no matter what type of degree we have instead of tearing each other apart. I would like to be paid a little more than ADN's just because BSN programs usually require more money for tuition and fees, so loans are higher, and I would like to pay my loans off before I retire (LOL). Other than the money I don't really think I deserve any special treatment or am better or worse than a ADN nurse.
IMHO, that was an excellent post!
I was an ADN from 1998-2004, and have been BSN since 2004. My wife is an outstanding RN [ADN] and has no inclination towards BSN. BTW, Cat made a good point that all RN's take the same NCLEX. Furthermore, it has been my experience that when it comes to actual clinical prep the ADN GN will more times than not be better prepared.
syudent1010@aol.com wrote:...I love the education I have got in the BSN program but I don't feel that there was more clinical time in my BSN then was in my ADN program,...
One nurse practitioner explained it to me like this...
Depending on what the employer is looking for at that time in a new graduate, one may be initially better than the other. If they want someone that can jump right in instantly with little preceptoring, she'd choose an ADN. If they were looking at long term goals and more time for preceptoring, they'd look at a BSN.
I think what people in this discussion keep bringing up are experienced nurses. With time, either an ADN or BSN would be a great nurse unless that person's personality gets in the way.
The other thing I've seen mentioned and have thought about myself is what would happen to ADN programs if a mandatory entry BSN law is passed. Sure, some programs would close. Others might be able to become affiliated with university or private college programs, or maybe even online programs (for the research and managerial type courses) and then be able to continue their efforts.
As it was explained to me in school, it really is about bettering the "profession" of nursing. It's a topic that will probably be fought over for decades to come.
Here in Ontario, to practice nsg. you must be a Bsn. grad. This changed in 2004, and nurses who prev. graduated were grandfathered in. I can't really say if this has exacerbated the nsg. shortage, but I'm sure it didn't help. Any of the community colleges that previously offered the RN program simply aligned themselves with a university that offers the degree program. My hospital is going to be a pilot project- one of 5 in Ontario to offer the BsN on site from one of the universities. I have applied, but there are only 9 spots. So we shall see...
My two cents worth....I think it is absolutely crazy. I am in Virginia, and there is certainly a "push" toward BSN degrees (or higher) here. I currently drive 1 hr 20 mins to work and I recently was looking at a closer hospital for a job. Most of their job descriptions state "BSN required". I'm wondering how their staffing is?? No one is going to tell me that I'm a less qualified nurse because I have only an Associate degree. I've been doing this for almost 15 yrs and working in the medical profession since I was 18. The day that I can't find a job because I don't have the "required" BSN, sadly, will probably be the day I leave the profession.
Seriesse_DL wrote:My two cents worth....I think it is absolutely crazy. I am in Virginia, and there is certainly a "push" toward BSN degrees (or higher) here. I currently drive 1 hr 20 mins to work and I recently was looking at a closer hospital for a job. Most of their job descriptions state "BSN required". I'm wondering how their staffing is?? No one is going to tell me that I'm a less qualified nurse because I have only an Associate degree. I've been doing this for almost 15 yrs and working in the medical profession since I was 18. The day that I can't find a job because I don't have the "required" BSN, sadly, will probably be the day I leave the profession.
IMHO, it is great that an RN has the potential to reach the educational level of PhD. However, to make it mandatory for BSN in order to practice nursing is very unreasonable. Like it has already been mentioned, there is only NCLEX!
pipingmad wrote:One nurse practitioner explained it to me like this...
Depending on what the employer is looking for at that time in a new graduate, one may be initially better than the other. If they want someone that can jump right in instantly with little preceptoring, she'd choose an ADN. If they were looking at long term goals and more time for preceptoring, they'd look at a BSN.
I think what people in this discussion keep bringing up are experienced nurses. With time, either an ADN or BSN would be a great nurse unless that person's personality gets in the way.
The other thing I've seen mentioned and have thought about myself is what would happen to ADN programs if a mandatory entry BSN law is passed. Sure, some programs would close. Others might be able to become affiliated with university or private college programs, or maybe even online programs (for the research and managerial type courses) and then be able to continue their efforts.
As it was explained to me in school, it really is about bettering the "profession" of nursing. It's a topic that will probably be fought over for decades to come.
You mentioned that ADN programs would close. However, what about the ADN nurses? BTW, my argument is not solely regards to the 'experienced' ADN. I'd venture to say a new ADN & new BSN nurse fresh out of school will have equal skills in the clinical setting. To imply the nursing field would be better off without ADN educated nurses is crazy.
MagRedC5 wrote:You mentioned that ADN programs would close. However, what about the ADN nurses? BTW, my argument is not solely regards to the 'experienced' ADN. I'd venture to say a new ADN & new BSN nurse fresh out of school will have equal skills in the clinical setting. To imply the nursing field would be better off without ADN educated nurses is crazy.
Maybe we could go BACKWARDS and have LPN's in charge of a ward. In a hospital. They were when I went to LPN school in '79. Or better yet why have a test. Nurses weren't tested in FN's time.
How can nursing ever hope to become respected and move forward with so many entries into practice? Please don't compare us to any other profession. We are unique and special. All of us.
BTW there are still a few diploma schools and IMHO they produced the best nurses bar none. Plenty of OJT..
ADN nurses with a certain amount of time "served" would be grandfathered. Not a new concept.
justatraveler wrote:
How can nursing ever hope to become respected and move forward with so many entries into practice? Please don't compare us to any other profession. We are unique and special. All of us.
You become respected by doing a good job. Nurses with advanced degrees do research to futher the profession.
One thing that NO-ONE has even considered.....who is going to teach the BSN classes? One needs a Doctorate, pretty much. Only problem is that the going pay rate for teaching is not even CLOSE to what one can make on the floor or as an NP, etc. Oh, I know that there are incentives out there, but..... Takers, anybody? 'Cat'
Be honest....when you were last in the hospital, did anyone ask their nurse where s/he went to school? If they were 'just' an ADN, would you refuse care?
Food for thought....in every graduating class of MD's SOMEone had to finish last..... :rolleyes:
I've herd some discussion about allowing community colleges being able to offer bachelor degrees. This is the only way I could see making BSN manditory.
The university here (Grand Valley State) just announced that it is going to start a DNP program in order to help fill the need of nursing instructors. In my opinion, the need is better pay for instructors would help since one can make just as much, if not more being a staff nurse.
I think it is a foolish idea given the current and impending nursing shortage. I have an Associates in Nursing, and I really don't believe a bachelor's degree will change me for the better in any way.
I've gone back to school for it twice, and stopped after a few classes. Eventually, I will get it because having it for my business will be very helpful. However I don't need it.
I'm a great nurse, had great on the job training after graduation, which has set me up for life as a great nurse.
I think that continuing education is more important than college classes like statistics, ethics, biochem, etc. that I've had to take towards my BSN.
I think we also need to further focus on training our nurses after they graduate into the work force. Many nurses don't get proper orientation, and get eaten alive by the nasty, catty nurses who try to make them cry. Embrace the new nurses and teach them a thing or two. Nursing is about teaching; we should adapt that philosophy with our OWN.
