Reply With QuoteJennyP, just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your reply. Especially, agreed with your last paragraph. Sometimes, or most of the time, the media does more harm than good regards to PR for the nursing profession.
First off, this thread was started over 3 years ago; so I doubt if the OP is around any more (judging by the low post counts).
Secondly, it would be interesting to know more details (is there a cultural/religious reason for the patients' objections? When I read the original post, the syntax doesn't flow like most American English to me). There are some cultural and religious reasons that some nationalities would not allow a male to touch or view a female patient (even male doctors for women in many Middle-Eastern countries).
Third, if the patient says no to a male bathing her and she is unable to do so herself, someone else should bathe her or it would be considered an assault. The family or spouse of the patient shouldn't have a say in this unless she is incompetent, they request it beforehand (such as in the case of a woman who has been sexually assaulted in the past) or that they have healthcare POA.
Fourth, I am a nurse, it doesn't bother me when I bathe a male. It's a PERSON who needs help at that time. *I* don't see that that person as a male or a sexual being; just as a male nurse doesn't see that person (be it male or female) as being a sexual being then either. We are caring for a person who needs our help. I've been very ill at different times in my life and have been cared for by male nurses. From what I remember, their baths have been as asexual as any a female has given me, and there wasn't any sexual undercurrent involved at all, even when I was intubated and cared for by a former co-worker.
I once had a male co-worker who would tell very raunchy jokes to us in the break room all of the time, trying to embarrass us (now-a-days, he'd be hit with a sexual harassment charge right away if he pulled that). He was always very professional on the unit, but his language and jokes in the break room were less than professional. He later became a CRNA, and he was at my daughter's birth. At first I was a bit put off by the fact that *he* was there; but once again he was a perfect professional on the job; and when my daughter ran into problems during the birth(aspirating meconium), I was more than happy *HE* was the anesthetist on call.
There is nothing sexually exciting about Nursing or being a nurse at all. The entertainment media and porn movies may say otherwise, but sickly, sweaty bodies in open-backed hospital gowns smelling vaguely of stale bodily fluids in rooms that have either an antiseptic or uncleaned toilet smell have to be the biggest turn-off there is.
JennyP, just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your reply. Especially, agreed with your last paragraph. Sometimes, or most of the time, the media does more harm than good regards to PR for the nursing profession.
Cary James Barrett, RN, BSN
To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.
So you're saying that if I (male) request to be bathed by a female they can ignore my wishes and bathe me anyway. Any female that tried to bathe me would end up with a black eye.
FYI- assault of a healthcare worker, in addition to never being a good way to get what you want, is a felony. My patient last night who tried to take a swing at me got promptly tased by the friendly police officer at the bedside... I don't suggest ever trying to give your nurse a black eye... :devil_smile:Originally Posted by clay jensen
Amanda, RN, BSN
Ex-Traveler Extraordinaire,
Resident Trauma Queen
A patient has the right to refuse treatment. If, a healthcare worker ignores a patient's right to refuse treatment, then what? BTW, I'm not condoning patient violence onto healthcare workers.
Cary James Barrett, RN, BSN
Any female that tried to bathe me would end up with a black eye.
Figure of speech. I'm not a violent person, I just say that to show how seriously I would take it. No disrespect.
To the junior member who says that female nurses have bathed male patients for years and no one has had a problem with it.”
No one? Of course, by “no one” you mean the nurses. How do you know “no one” has had a problem with it? Have you asked these men if they have a problem with it, or is it just assumed they don’t have a problem with it? Don’t let stereotyped assumptions lead your professional life. Ask.
To the member who wrote “It's never ethical to do anything to anyone against their will regardless of the nurse's gender.”
That’s the right answer. I’m convinced most nurses understand and accept this.
Ask. Ask. Ask. Communicate. Don’t just assume. And don’t assume that attitude of “entitlement” – that is, I’m a nurse and because I’m a “professional” I have access to “bodies” and patients better just get used to it. Several posters have noted that you don’t do anything against the patient’s wishes? How do you know what the patients wishes are? Do you assume that just because they don’t say anything everything’s okay? Don’t assume that. Ask, if you really believe you should honor a patient’s wishers. Patients are often vulnerable, sometimes frightened. Ask.
To the poster who wrote: “Whenever I have to place a foley on a male or do anything that could have their genitals exposed I always have another person in the room with me. This protects both the patient and myself.” Protects the patient? Let’s get real. You’re doing that to protect yourself. Chaperones are supposed to be for patient comfort as much as doctor/nurse protection. And so you use a chaperone/witness that’s being paid by the institution you work for? That’s ethical? And, you’re supposed to ask the patient’s permission to have a chaperone. Do you do that? And, ethically, chaperones are supposed to be the same gender as the patient if the patient wants that. But how do you know all this unless you….yes, ask. There's some interesting research out there about chaperones, and it shows that most men (over 90 percent)do not want chaperones. It varies with women. Some want chaperones with male doctors and nurses, some don't. It varies. The reasearch is out there. Look it up.
To the poster who wrote: “To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.”
Obviously you’re not a nurse. If you did what you say above, you’d be guilty of battery. Doctor’s orders don’t trump a patient’s right to refuse treatment. Some patients can be difficult, agreed. But you need to find ways to deal with them. If they become abusive, deal with that firmly.
Having said all that, I’m convinced most professional doctors and nurses understand all this. Most practice it everyday, some better than others.
I thought you were not speaking literally but in retrospect be careful with such talk among strange people, er strangers.
Cary James Barrett, RN, BSN
Excellent reply, IMHO. I look forward to your future post.
Cary James Barrett, RN, BSN
Flip the tables. Female nurses have to bath males and it at times is more socially acceptable. But with more men coming into nursing that is going to change. Just because you have a penis doesn't mean you get out of bathing your female patients!
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