1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
1- no it's not ethical to do anything against someones wishes, male or female.
2- he should have gloves on, but if a male nurse is giving a bath, the genitals should be included.
3- would a female nurse think to ask the families permission prior to giving a bath to a man?
4- yes, my grandmother was taken care of by a male nurse. She spoke very highly of him.
Female nurses have bathed male patients for years and no one has had a problem with it.
I am a male nurse and have had to bathe female patients and never once had anyone make an issue of it. Further, I did not become a nurse just so I could a see or bathe naked female.
It's time to get over these issue and remember its about patient care, period.
3eyes wrote:1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
1- NO, the patient's right to refuse medical/nursing care must be honored.
2- Not exactly, gloves should be worn whenever giving any kind of nursing care. Otherwise, as long as wearing gloves and with professional conduct an RN is an RN.
3- An RN is an RN... no matter the gender. Male RNs are fully capable of providing nursing care with the upmost professional conduct just as a female nurse giving nursing care to a male patient.
4- Again, medical/nursing care should not be given against a patient's wishes.
I, being a Male RN, find the direction of this Thread headed in a path that may be short lived.
3eyes wrote:1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
If a patient that is mentally competent refuses treatment whether it be medications, a procedure, or a bath to name a few this person could actually charge someone with assault. When a competent person refuses treatment, no matter what it is, ask questions regarding their reasons behind the refusal and document.
Whenever I have to place a foley on a male or do anything that could have their genitals exposed I always have another person in the room with me. This protects both the patient and myself.
I see nothing wrong with this but every nurse should wear gloves when doing it. I can't imagine a nurse not wearing gloves when giving a bed bath. Asking for permission is polite and helps avoid conflicts.
3eyes wrote:1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
Moderators please forgive me.
A nurse is a nurse,is a nurse,
universal precautions are a must,
No means No
and how long has it been sence the last bath?
are they a psyc patient?
can they bathe themselves,
is the spouce willing to do it?
what medical reason are they in a place where they need a bed bath.
Obviously lots of unanswered ?'s.
A nurse should always have someone to watch his/her back.
If the spouce is against it but the patient dosen't care then the spouce is the only one with a problem.
And yes my Wife has had a nurse who was a man, no I didn't have a problem with that, but the whole Male Dr. thing? What is he some kind of a freak or somthing?
To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.
This is probably as clear as mud by now, about like your question so if you want a clear answer please be a little more specific about the details surrounding your delemma.
Are you a sevearly jealous man, a well meaning son/spouce or just that clueless about why people become Nurses?
If it isn't perverted for a MALE Doctor to do a vaginal exam, or a FEMALE Doctor to check a mans prostate what do people have against a man bathing a woman. I do it all the time. I have been a nurse for quite a while, and I have bathed all ages of both men and Women,from teen to twentysomthing and beyond all the way up to a 106 year old woman the only thing different about these women was the fact that they were different ages, and No my Wife has not got a problem with me doing this. The only thing they have had in common (besides the obvious) is that they needed to have someone do it for them because they could not do it for themselves.
I see a patient and thats what its all about. This notion that men become nurses to get a cheep thrill is preposterous. if they got as far as the N-CLEX exam they were doing it for the proper reasons not the perverted ones.
"And that's all I've got to say about that." (Forest gump)
First off, this thread was started over 3 years ago; so I doubt if the OP is around any more (judging by the low post counts).
Secondly, it would be interesting to know more details (is there a cultural/religious reason for the patients' objections? When I read the original post, the syntax doesn't flow like most American English to me). There are some cultural and religious reasons that some nationalities would not allow a male to touch or view a female patient (even male doctors for women in many Middle-Eastern countries).
Third, if the patient says no to a male bathing her and she is unable to do so herself, someone else should bathe her or it would be considered an assault. The family or spouse of the patient shouldn't have a say in this unless she is incompetent, they request it beforehand (such as in the case of a woman who has been sexually assaulted in the past) or that they have healthcare POA.
Fourth, I am a nurse, it doesn't bother me when I bathe a male. It's a PERSON who needs help at that time. *I* don't see that that person as a male or a sexual being; just as a male nurse doesn't see that person (be it male or female) as being a sexual being then either. We are caring for a person who needs our help. I've been very ill at different times in my life and have been cared for by male nurses. From what I remember, their baths have been as asexual as any a female has given me, and there wasn't any sexual undercurrent involved at all, even when I was intubated and cared for by a former co-worker.
I once had a male co-worker who would tell very raunchy jokes to us in the break room all of the time, trying to embarrass us (now-a-days, he'd be hit with a sexual harassment charge right away if he pulled that). He was always very professional on the unit, but his language and jokes in the break room were less than professional. He later became a CRNA, and he was at my daughter's birth. At first I was a bit put off by the fact that *he* was there; but once again he was a perfect professional on the job; and when my daughter ran into problems during the birth(aspirating meconium), I was more than happy *HE* was the anesthetist on call.
There is nothing sexually exciting about Nursing or being a nurse at all. The entertainment media and porn movies may say otherwise, but sickly, sweaty bodies in open-backed hospital gowns smelling vaguely of stale bodily fluids in rooms that have either an antiseptic or uncleaned toilet smell have to be the biggest turn-off there is.
JennyP, just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your reply. Especially, agreed with your last paragraph. Sometimes, or most of the time, the media does more harm than good regards to PR for the nursing profession.
To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.
So you're saying that if I (male) request to be bathed by a female they can ignore my wishes and bathe me anyway. Any female that tried to bathe me would end up with a black eye.
clay jensen wrote:So you're saying that if I (male) request to be bathed by a female they can ignore my wishes and bathe me anyway. Any female that tried to bathe me would end up with a black eye.
FYI- assault of a healthcare worker, in addition to never being a good way to get what you want, is a felony. My patient last night who tried to take a swing at me got promptly tased by the friendly police officer at the bedside... I don't suggest ever trying to give your nurse a black eye... :devil_smile:
AmandaWIRN wrote:FYI- assault of a healthcare worker, in addition to never being a good way to get what you want, is a felony. My patient last night who tried to take a swing at me got promptly tased by the friendly police officer at the bedside... I don't suggest ever trying to give your nurse a black eye... :devil_smile:
A patient has the right to refuse treatment. If, a healthcare worker ignores a patient's right to refuse treatment, then what? BTW, I'm not condoning patient violence onto healthcare workers.
To the junior member who says that female nurses have bathed male patients for years and no one has had a problem with it.”
No one? Of course, by “no one” you mean the nurses. How do you know “no one” has had a problem with it? Have you asked these men if they have a problem with it, or is it just assumed they don’t have a problem with it? Don’t let stereotyped assumptions lead your professional life. Ask.
To the member who wrote “It's never ethical to do anything to anyone against their will regardless of the nurse's gender.”
That’s the right answer. I’m convinced most nurses understand and accept this.
Ask. Ask. Ask. Communicate. Don’t just assume. And don’t assume that attitude of “entitlement” – that is, I’m a nurse and because I’m a “professional” I have access to “bodies” and patients better just get used to it. Several posters have noted that you don’t do anything against the patient’s wishes? How do you know what the patients wishes are? Do you assume that just because they don’t say anything everything’s okay? Don’t assume that. Ask, if you really believe you should honor a patient’s wishers. Patients are often vulnerable, sometimes frightened. Ask.
To the poster who wrote: “Whenever I have to place a foley on a male or do anything that could have their genitals exposed I always have another person in the room with me. This protects both the patient and myself.” Protects the patient? Let’s get real. You’re doing that to protect yourself. Chaperones are supposed to be for patient comfort as much as doctor/nurse protection. And so you use a chaperone/witness that’s being paid by the institution you work for? That’s ethical? And, you’re supposed to ask the patient’s permission to have a chaperone. Do you do that? And, ethically, chaperones are supposed to be the same gender as the patient if the patient wants that. But how do you know all this unless you….yes, ask. There's some interesting research out there about chaperones, and it shows that most men (over 90 percent)do not want chaperones. It varies with women. Some want chaperones with male doctors and nurses, some don't. It varies. The reasearch is out there. Look it up.
To the poster who wrote: “To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.”
Obviously you’re not a nurse. If you did what you say above, you’d be guilty of battery. Doctor’s orders don’t trump a patient’s right to refuse treatment. Some patients can be difficult, agreed. But you need to find ways to deal with them. If they become abusive, deal with that firmly.
Having said all that, I’m convinced most professional doctors and nurses understand all this. Most practice it everyday, some better than others.
Murmer wrote:To the junior member who says that female nurses have bathed male patients for years and no one has had a problem with it.”
No one? Of course, by “no one” you mean the nurses. How do you know “no one” has had a problem with it? Have you asked these men if they have a problem with it, or is it just assumed they don’t have a problem with it? Don’t let stereotyped assumptions lead your professional life. Ask.
To the member who wrote “It's never ethical to do anything to anyone against their will regardless of the nurse's gender.”
That’s the right answer. I’m convinced most nurses understand and accept this.
Ask. Ask. Ask. Communicate. Don’t just assume. And don’t assume that attitude of “entitlement” – that is, I’m a nurse and because I’m a “professional” I have access to “bodies” and patients better just get used to it. Several posters have noted that you don’t do anything against the patient’s wishes? How do you know what the patients wishes are? Do you assume that just because they don’t say anything everything’s okay? Don’t assume that. Ask, if you really believe you should honor a patient’s wishers. Patients are often vulnerable, sometimes frightened. Ask.
To the poster who wrote: “Whenever I have to place a foley on a male or do anything that could have their genitals exposed I always have another person in the room with me. This protects both the patient and myself.” Protects the patient? Let’s get real. You’re doing that to protect yourself. Chaperones are supposed to be for patient comfort as much as doctor/nurse protection. And so you use a chaperone/witness that’s being paid by the institution you work for? That’s ethical? And, you’re supposed to ask the patient’s permission to have a chaperone. Do you do that? And, ethically, chaperones are supposed to be the same gender as the patient if the patient wants that. But how do you know all this unless you….yes, ask. There's some interesting research out there about chaperones, and it shows that most men (over 90 percent)do not want chaperones. It varies with women. Some want chaperones with male doctors and nurses, some don't. It varies. The reasearch is out there. Look it up.
To the poster who wrote: “To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.”
Obviously you’re not a nurse. If you did what you say above, you’d be guilty of battery. Doctor’s orders don’t trump a patient’s right to refuse treatment. Some patients can be difficult, agreed. But you need to find ways to deal with them. If they become abusive, deal with that firmly.
Having said all that, I’m convinced most professional doctors and nurses understand all this. Most practice it everyday, some better than others.
Excellent reply, IMHO. I look forward to your future post.
Flip the tables. Female nurses have to bath males and it at times is more socially acceptable. But with more men coming into nursing that is going to change. Just because you have a penis doesn't mean you get out of bathing your female patients!:)
Thanks for the replies. Bleucloud -- I'm not talking about "getting out" of anything. I'm talking about being more sensative to gender. There seems to be an attitude within healthcare that gender doesn't matter when it comes to patient intimate care. The research doesn't back that up. Gender does matter, quite often to the patient, sometimes to the caregiver. It's a topic that needs to be upfront and open, a topic that caregivers need to discuss with their patients. That communication alone may help many patients feel more comfortable about opposite gender care and turn mere silent, embarrassed compliance into positive cooperation.
I'm also curious as a scholar about these "socially acceptable" activities; that is, why is it more socially acceptable for female nurses to do intimate care on males and not vice a versa? And who gets to define what's socially acceptable and what isn't -- the hospital culture, the nurse, the doctor, or, the patient?
The fact is that there's not much research out there about patient attitudes toward modesty, especially research dealing with men. And it is a fact that hospitals just don't ask patients, as a general rule, about their values about modesty and opposite gender care. They don't ask for many reasons. In some cases they're just busy; sometimes they don't think it's an issue. But I have more confidence in the intelligence of hospital personnel. They know this is an issue, and most of them deal with it every day in very professional ways. But often they don't ask because they don't want an answer because they know what the answer will be and they can't accommodate, especially with men.
You're right, with more male nurses entering the profession things may change. But, as you know, the studies show that a significant number of males don't last in nursing, and many if not most of the ones that do move up into admin or teaching.
I've always wondered why nursing hasn't been "desegrated" offically. Why are there not quotas and incentives for men to enter nursing? Why isn't there affirmative action? Nursing as a femenine occupation is a 19th century Victorian construct. The idea that gender doesn't matter with intimate care seems to have embedded itself in our culture beginning in the 1960's as the women's movement progressed and more women became doctors and entered other professions. Attitudes are starting to change as we realize how important gender differences are in intimate situations like the one's we're talking about.
But like teaching, nursing has in recent history been a female occupation and thus the salaries have not been real competative, and the respect hasn't been there. There are many parallels between nursing and teaching. Those were the two major respectable occupations available to women, and if that's all that was really open to them, a significant number of early women's right's leaders were adament that those would be strictly female professions. No men. Did you know that from about WW1 to the Korean War the nurses unions fought to keep men out?
Sorry to get off topic. I find these fascinating topics from a historical/psychological/sociological point of view.
And lest you read too much into my text, I think nursing is one of the most essential, important professions on earth and have great respect for the men and women who do this job. As with any professions,though, I think there needs to be a better balance between men and women in nursing. What happens with narrown minded "boy's clubs" can also happen to narrow minded "girl's clubs."
bleucloud wrote:Flip the tables. Female nurses have to bath males and it at times is more socially acceptable. But with more men coming into nursing that is going to change. Just because you have a penis doesn't mean you get out of bathing your female patients!:)
LOL, last I heard the percentages of male RN's are only 7% of the RN workforce [civilian side of the house]. Nonetheless, it should not be a matter of what is "socially acceptable". It SHOULD be what is professionally acceptable, which I agree the male RN's should give female patients a bath. EVERYTIME I've given patient care to a female patient it is done professionally. OMG, I see nothing whatsoever being intimate [in a sexual manner] regards to patient care.
Your distinction between the socially acceptable and the professionally acceptable is interesting. I'm not sure what you mean, but here's how I read it.
The social sphere involveds what may or may not be acceptable to individual patients in a culture of society. This sphere recognizes that there may be differences in how people respond to intimate care. This sphere also recognizes individual atonomy in this area.
The professional sphere refers specifically to a profession, i.e. the medical profession. The patient really has no say in this sphere. If the profession says it's acceptable for opposite genders to do intimate care, then it's okay, regardless of how the patient feels. I must say that this attitude is too common within our healthcare culture. And when you enter a hospital, you do enter a unique culture, an institutuional culture that looks inward toward what's best for itself, inward to what will preserve it's existance, inward to it's own feelings.
Secondly, it isn't a question of whether this activity has any sexual connotations for the nurse. Who knows? We can't get into people's heads. I hope we can assume the professionalism of medical people and that, even if they do occasionally have these feelings, they can control them. But to make an out right statement that there are never any sexual feelings involved is to completely erase the sexual nature of who we are as human beings. That doesn't make sense. We have a sexual nature and we don't drop that -- nurse or patient -- when we enter a hospital.
Thirdly, too many medical people look inward at how they feel and not outward enough about how the patient feels. Just because you do this kind of work all the time and it's routine for you, doesn't make it routine for the patient. Just because you've gained controled over your feelings with expereince, that doesn't mean the patient, who may have had little hospital experiences, has control over his or her feelings. Just because gender doesn't matter to you, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to the patient. Really, this isn't about you. It's about the patient and the patients feelings, comfort and emotional health.
I'm sure you're a wonderful nurse and most patietns of both genders are comfortable around you. But your notion of what's "professional acceptable" doesn't sit well with me, unless I'm reading your thoughts wrong. If I am, please correct me.
Your distinction between the socially acceptable and the professionally acceptable is interesting. I'm not sure what you mean, but here's how I read it.
The social sphere involveds what may or may not be acceptable to individual patients in a culture of society. This sphere recognizes that there may be differences in how people respond to intimate care. This sphere also recognizes individual atonomy in this area.
The professional sphere refers specifically to a profession, i.e. the medical profession. The patient really has no say in this sphere. If the profession says it's acceptable for opposite genders to do intimate care, then it's okay, regardless of how the patient feels. I must say that this attitude is too common within our healthcare culture. And when you enter a hospital, you do enter a unique culture, an institutuional culture that looks inward toward what's best for itself, inward to what will preserve it's existance, inward to it's own feelings.
Secondly, it isn't a question of whether this activity has any sexual connotations for the nurse. Who knows? We can't get into people's heads. I hope we can assume the professionalism of medical people and that, even if they do occasionally have these feelings, they can control them. But to make an out right statement that there are never any sexual feelings involved is to completely erase the sexual nature of who we are as human beings. That doesn't make sense. We have a sexual nature and we don't drop that -- nurse or patient -- when we enter a hospital.
Thirdly, too many medical people look inward at how they feel and not outward enough about how the patient feels. Just because you do this kind of work all the time and it's routine for you, doesn't make it routine for the patient. Just because you've gained controled over your feelings with expereince, that doesn't mean the patient, who may have had little hospital experiences, has control over his or her feelings. Just because gender doesn't matter to you, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to the patient. Really, this isn't about you. It's about the patient and the patients feelings, comfort and emotional health.
I'm sure you're a wonderful nurse and most patietns of both genders are comfortable around you. But your notion of what's "professional acceptable" doesn't sit well with me, unless I'm reading your thoughts wrong. If I am, please correct me.
Murmur, I looked at your Ultimate Nurse profile and it is empty. You replied to my post not by my Ultimate Nurse username but by my first name. Please, only reply to my username... if, at all.
Honestly, it does not matter to me what does & what does not "sit well" with you. I would like to use these various public nursing forums as a source of BOTH social & professional enjoyment.
I don't have to spend an extrenous amount of time with granting you some grand explanation. However, I will briefly reiterate here... to clarify my good name, and not to satisfy or pacify you. Again, these public forums are not meant to be personal.
IMHO, a patient has the RIGHT to refuse any type of health care. Therefore, if not a life saving event ... a patient can request [or demand if that sits with you better] to have the same gender nurse perform the bed bath. Yet, IMHO it should be professionally acceptable [WITH PATIENT'S CONSENT] for a male nurse to give a bed bath to a female patient just as it should be professionally acceptable for a female nurse to give a bed bath to a male patient.
Again, I NEVER EVEN SUGGESTED GENDER DID NOT MATTER TO ME in the arena of health care regards to privacy issues. Plus, I NEVER SUGGESTED THIS IS ABOUT ME. I've always been a firm believer that the patient should be empowered to make the primary decisions in their heath care issues.
Last, I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO INFORM YOU THAT I NEVER HAVE SEXUAL FEELINGS TOWARDS MY PATIENTS. For you to post otherwise is completely w/o merit.
Obviously, your reply has angered me greatly. I find it best to end my reply here.
Hello, all. In case you haven't done the research, nursing WAS done by males, esp. during the Middle Ages. Only in the past 100 years or so, has it been a 'female' job. I seem to remember the stigma attached to nursing, too. Remember Sary Gamp? If not, look it up. I often get the comment of 'Is it my wife talking, or the nurse?' from my husband, and my comeback is 'You can't split the two anymore.' Patients DO need baths, I agree. I often have patients wash as much as they can, and then I 'do the rest'. IF there is a problem, it gets charted, and it gets 'bumped up the food chain', careplanned, etc. Also, please look at the date of the original Post....2005. Original poster has not been back, either. Mind you, this is a good thread, but let's not get too nuts. I have seldom locked a thread, and I don't wanna start right now. Enough said.
cougarnurse wrote:Hello, all. In case you haven't done the research, nursing WAS done by males, esp. during the Middle Ages. Only in the past 100 years or so, has it been a 'female' job. I seem to remember the stigma attached to nursing, too. Remember Sary Gamp? If not, look it up. I often get the comment of 'Is it my wife talking, or the nurse?' from my husband, and my comeback is 'You can't split the two anymore.' Patients DO need baths, I agree. I often have patients wash as much as they can, and then I 'do the rest'. IF there is a problem, it gets charted, and it gets 'bumped up the food chain', careplanned, etc. Also, please look at the date of the original Post....2005. Original poster has not been back, either. Mind you, this is a good thread, but let's not get too nuts. I have seldom locked a thread, and I don't wanna start right now. Enough said.
I don't want to get into an argument with you. I'm sure you're a great nurse. I'm not implying anything about you personally. But I stand by what I said about our human sexual natures. We don't leave them at the hospital door. It's naive to think we do.
Also, do you realize that what appears to be your real name is listed at the end of your posts on this blog? That's why I used your name. It's not as though it is hidden. It's right there after your post. If you don't want it there, remove it.
And I agree with you comletely, that it should be professionally acceptable if the patient consents to any kind of opposite gender care. But, frankly, I don't know why we're using the world "should." It's my understanding that it pretty much is (with very few exceptions) the case in American healthcare. I'm just concerned with not just "consent," but true "informed consent." Just because someone complies with intimate care doesn't always mean there has been actualy informed consent and agreement. Patients are sometimes vulnerable, naked, frightened and feel powerless. They will sometimes just let anything be done to them whether they agree or not. I'm not convinced that good communication always happens. That's what I'm saying.
But, getting back to the original question on this thread about whether a male nurse should bathe a famale patient. I agree with you. It should be professionally acceptable if the patient consents, really consents. And vice a versa with female nurses bathing male patients.
This is a sensative topic. There needs to be more communication about this between doctors/nurses and patients. It shouldn't be hidden in blogs like this. It should be on the websites of the major hospitals, and on the websites of clinics. Patients shouldn't have to wait until they get into the hospital bed before these subjects are discussed and confronted.
Blogs are not alwasy the best way for people to communicate. It's difficult sometimes to get across subtle ideas without facial expressions, vocal tone and body language. If I offended you, I do apologize. It wasn't my intent. I have great respect for the work you and other nurses do. But let's communicate; let's talk about these issues.
I don't want to get into an argument with you. I'm sure you're a great nurse. I'm not implying anything about you personally. But I stand by what I said about our human sexual natures. We don't leave them at the hospital door. It's naive to think we do.
Also, do you realize that what appears to be your real name is listed at the end of your posts on this blog? That's why I used your name. It's not as though it is hidden. It's right there after your post. If you don't want it there, remove it.
And I agree with you comletely, that it should be professionally acceptable if the patient consents to any kind of opposite gender care. But, frankly, I don't know why we're using the world "should." It's my understanding that it pretty much is (with very few exceptions) the case in American healthcare. I'm just concerned with not just "consent," but true "informed consent." Just because someone complies with intimate care doesn't always mean there has been actualy informed consent and agreement. Patients are sometimes vulnerable, naked, frightened and feel powerless. They will sometimes just let anything be done to them whether they agree or not. I'm not convinced that good communication always happens. That's what I'm saying.
But, getting back to the original question on this thread about whether a male nurse should bathe a famale patient. I agree with you. It should be professionally acceptable if the patient consents, really consents. And vice a versa with female nurses bathing male patients.
This is a sensative topic. There needs to be more communication about this between doctors/nurses and patients. It shouldn't be hidden in blogs like this. It should be on the websites of the major hospitals, and on the websites of clinics. Patients shouldn't have to wait until they get into the hospital bed before these subjects are discussed and confronted.
Blogs are not alwasy the best way for people to communicate. It's difficult sometimes to get across subtle ideas without facial expressions, vocal tone and body language. If I offended you, I do apologize. It wasn't my intent. I have great respect for the work you and other nurses do. But let's communicate; let's talk about these issues.
Murmer wrote:Soldier Nurse:
But I stand by what I said about our human sexual natures. We don't leave them at the hospital door. It's naive to think we do.
I do, and I'm pretty far from naive.
Work is work- it's my career, my job, call it what you want, but there's nothing sexual about it. If someone cannot leave their sexual nature at the door, then I would suggest they find a different field to work in.
I go to work to save lives, not to check out guys.
AmandaWIRN wrote:I do, and I'm pretty far from naive.
Work is work- it's my career, my job, call it what you want, but there's nothing sexual about it. If someone cannot leave their sexual nature at the door, then I would suggest they find a different field to work in.
I go to work to save lives, not to check out guys.
Here we are, back at the ageless bedbath issue except now we have the situation in reverse and it's become quite serious. I've been thinking about this thread and of course, being the verbose one that I am, need to share what's going through my head so, here goes.
Years ago, long before frivolous lawsuits and epidemic preoccupation with graphic sexuality, there was some humor to be found in in this situation. Of course there were sexual undertones but for some reason, we just laughed it off. I'm not suggesting that laughing about it will solve the seemingly arduous process of should the man bathe the woman but it may help put things in perspective.
There are still men and women and there is still sex going on but our social structure is quite different than it was years ago so we need to look at it again. Back to the bedbath. Let's see, hygeine, very important, yes? Person A is dirty and person B is there to help. Person A needs the help and Person B is willing to offer. I know it's oversimplified but that's really the where we are. Factor in our ethnicity, experience, individual morals and values around sexuality and sensuality and we intensify that very simple model. Now add the power dynamic of the nurse-patient relationship but with the sexrole reversal and we have that supercharged issue that we started with. Okay, but how do we handle it? In my opinion, we go back and oversimplify it again. A bedbath is a bedbath and nothing more or at least that's all it should be. I think that if we approach this simple, basic process in a subdued, professional, matter of fact way but keeping very aware of all forms of communication signals, the bedbath won't be a problem. There will always be exceptions but they will be few and far between.
I've been bathing female patients of all ages for years and can't remember ever having a problem. On occasion, it has been requested that a female do the bathing or toileting instead of me but I don't view that as a problem but rather a request that I should if possible, honor. Likewise, my female colleagues have approached me for help with their male patients who have requested a male to attend to them. This doesn't have to be problem oriented at all. We're looking at preferences that our patients have and if we advocate for our patients and look out for their needs, we should accommodate whenever possible and not take being refused because of our sex as a personal offense.
Ricu wrote:Here we are, back at the ageless bedbath issue except now we have the situation in reverse and it's become quite serious. I've been thinking about this thread and of course, being the verbose one that I am, need to share what's going through my head so, here goes.
Years ago, long before frivolous lawsuits and epidemic preoccupation with graphic sexuality, there was some humor to be found in in this situation. Of course there were sexual undertones but for some reason, we just laughed it off. I'm not suggesting that laughing about it will solve the seemingly arduous process of should the man bathe the woman but it may help put things in perspective.
There are still men and women and there is still sex going on but our social structure is quite different than it was years ago so we need to look at it again. Back to the bedbath. Let's see, hygeine, very important, yes? Person A is dirty and person B is there to help. Person A needs the help and Person B is willing to offer. I know it's oversimplified but that's really the where we are. Factor in our ethnicity, experience, individual morals and values around sexuality and sensuality and we intensify that very simple model. Now add the power dynamic of the nurse-patient relationship but with the sexrole reversal and we have that supercharged issue that we started with. Okay, but how do we handle it? In my opinion, we go back and oversimplify it again. A bedbath is a bedbath and nothing more or at least that's all it should be. I think that if we approach this simple, basic process in a subdued, professional, matter of fact way but keeping very aware of all forms of communication signals, the bedbath won't be a problem. There will always be exceptions but they will be few and far between.
I've been bathing female patients of all ages for years and can't remember ever having a problem. On occasion, it has been requested that a female do the bathing or toileting instead of me but I don't view that as a problem but rather a request that I should if possible, honor. Likewise, my female colleagues have approached me for help with their male patients who have requested a male to attend to them. This doesn't have to be problem oriented at all. We're looking at preferences that our patients have and if we advocate for our patients and look out for their needs, we should accommodate whenever possible and not take being refused because of our sex as a personal offense.
I am not in the medical profession, but have been by my wife's side for 9 major operations and 1 outpatient knee surgery. I am her advocate because 1)anything the doctor/nurse staff says/does is gospel to her; 2)is afraid of insulting a doctor by questioning their judgement; 3)what I have experienced myself with hospital stays makes me suspect anybody who enters the room: doctor or doctor wanna-be, nurse or nurse underling.
Doctors are like mechanics, they try this or that. If that doesn't work, after paying for the first try, I'll try something else. Nurses, real nurses, are worth their weight in gold, but they are a dying breed. Their replacements are not the same, many times lack common sense, don't have a real grasp of the human body mechanics, and doubt they have a real grasp of life itself. Male or female, if you can't change your own oil or tire, you can't be a good nurse.
To stick to the topic, male nurses attending female patients, is where I DO have problem, as I do with female nurses with male patients. I would refuse a female bathing me or inserting/removing a catheter. I start with a situation that happened to me being prepped for an angiogram at Hartford Hospital in Aug, 2006. A female nurse was shaving my left leg/groin with only a towel over my genitals. I was talking to her and the others as they arranged for the procedure and noticed that she purposely bumped up against my penis 3 or 4 times while shaving me. Because of the whole whirlwind atmosphere I didn't pay attention to this nor say anything. It was later that I thought about this and how it happened in the open with others in the OR but without any other person near the table.
If this can happen to a male in the open, what about a female patient alone in a room with a male nurse or doctor? What about the time the unconscious female is being wheeled back to her room? My wife had a bad fall and required a hospital stay for observation. The PA asked if they had done a rectal exam in the ER upon arrival (spinal injury) which they had done, but didn't mark it on the chart. The PA (for the doctor), a male, insisted that he do another, which he did, without anyone else in the room. I objected to this later, but he just looked at me like I didn't matter. She later had lamnioplasty and I was in the room as much a they would let me. Usually from 6 am to 10/11 pm. I watched and listened to everything. When she returned from surgery about 9pm she had the "air-bags" on her legs but no pump. When I finally had to leave at midnight, I asked where the pump was. The staff didn't seem to concerned about it, but I insisted they get one or call a supervisor. They then went to another floor to find one. I caught several times forgetting doses of pain meds. My wife, in her stupor from the pain, wouldn't have said anything. Her reply was, "oh their busy, they just forgot."
It is because of such arrogance that I don't trust any medical personnel for anything, doing things just to cover their butts (thanks to lawyers like Al Gore) and those that think they know it all. I have chosen to refuse, if able, any medical help. If I am conscious, I will not let anyone touch me. If unconscious, I have given my wife permisson to deny me any medical help. I'd rather die of my injury/medical problem than have procedures done to me that would embarrass me. My biggest fear is a foley catheter by a female who doesn't have the same plumbing as I do and that may be pissed off at men because of past life experiences.
Attitude like this make our jobs as nurses 10 times more difficult.....
If you have such disdain and dislike of healthcare professionals, why are you choosing to come to a site made for and by nurses??? I'm sure you could find a conspiracy theorist, medicine-hating forum to post on somewhere....
I can understand your frustration with such a response as appears above, but is that the best way to deal with it? Send them away? I don't think we're dealing with hatred of the profession as much as a lack of trust. The kinds of experiences he describes happen. Not all the time. But unfortunately more often that they should. I just talked with a couple recently who went through a horrible experience at a hosptial when one of them had surgery. I was surprised at the emotion they felt and how much lack of trust resulted.
I don't think a blog like this can restore the kind of trust that was lost in the man's description above, but to regard it as simply hatred toward the medical profession is, I think, simplistic. People like that man do exist in this world, and they will need medical help. Do we just let them die, or do we try to communicate with them, open up avenues of trust, try to regain what is lost.
Sorry, but I was really disappointed to read your reply.
Sure, there are a select few in nursing that might be better suited in another profession. However, the same can be said for any profession you think of.
For instance, just because you hate one president's policy, do you hate the presidency? Just because one mother on the news beat her kid, do you hate all mothers?
There exists a balance between good and bad in all things in nature. In anything you observe, you will find a negative and a positive. Would you even be able to appreciate a good nurse without having experienced a bad one, or would your opinion of them not be as high, were you to experience the good nurse in the first place and never the latter?
Without night, could we appreciate day?
Please do not judge the merits of a profession by the actions of a few.
There are some good nurses out there you know.
I can understand your frustration with such a response as appears above, but is that the best way to deal with it? Send them away? I don't think we're dealing with hatred of the profession as much as a lack of trust. The kinds of experiences he describes happen. Not all the time. But unfortunately more often that they should. I just talked with a couple recently who went through a horrible experience at a hosptial when one of them had surgery. I was surprised at the emotion they felt and how much lack of trust resulted.
I don't think a blog like this can restore the kind of trust that was lost in the man's description above, but to regard it as simply hatred toward the medical profession is, I think, simplistic. People like that man do exist in this world, and they will need medical help. Do we just let them die, or do we try to communicate with them, open up avenues of trust, try to regain what is lost.
Sorry, but I was really disappointed to read your reply.
I appreciated Amanda's reply. This website (not blog, LOL) is for healthcare professionals and NOT haters of same.
Murmer wrote: People like that man do exist in this world, and they will need medical help. Do we just let them die, or do we try to communicate with them, open up avenues of trust, try to regain what is lost.
Sorry, but I was really disappointed to read your reply.
He said himself he would rather die than seek medical help....
That's what he says. But what does he feel? Does he really believe that? Maybe so. Probably not. We don't always mean what we say when we say things like that. Some people have had traumatic experiences in hospitals and they lose trust. These experiences are rare considering the millions of people in and out of hospitals every day. But it does happen. And we're all different. What's merely upsetting for some could be traumatic for others. As I said, chances are blogs won't be able to help him. But blogs can further fuel his distrust. I don't see people who have had these bad experiences as medical professional haters. They've been hurt. And they're lashing out. They may even be frightened, knowing that they'll eventually have to go to the hosptial again and they don't really know how to handle it.
Like SoldierNurse said, this isn't a BLOG. It's a forum made for nurses, by nurses.... I understand that patients may have trust issues with healthcare workers, and that they may lash out. Hell, I work in the ER, I get "lashed out at" every day. But this forum is not my job- it's a place I go to discuss nursing issues with other nurses. I have to deal with difficult patients at work- I shouldn't have to deal with them here...
That's what he says. But what does he feel? Does he really believe that? Maybe so. Probably not. We don't always mean what we say when we say things like that. Some people have had traumatic experiences in hospitals and they lose trust. These experiences are rare considering the millions of people in and out of hospitals every day. But it does happen. And we're all different. What's merely upsetting for some could be traumatic for others. As I said, chances are blogs won't be able to help him. But blogs can further fuel his distrust. I don't see people who have had these bad experiences as medical professional haters. They've been hurt. And they're lashing out. They may even be frightened, knowing that they'll eventually have to go to the hosptial again and they don't really know how to handle it.
Murmur, please just let it go. You and the disenchanted one have led this thread off topic. Take him over to the rubber room, if that is your calling. Otherwise, stop calling this NURSING FORUM a blog.
Okay. I understand. Out of respect for you all I will leave this forum. It might help, though, if you made it clear that if you're not a nurse you're not welcome. Maybe you have made that clear and I just missed. I wish all of you the best. You have difficult, sometimes impossible jobs. And I do respect what you do.
Looks like I hit a nerve. But here it the quote the made my blood boil: "If the spouce is against it but the patient dosen't care then the spouce is the only one with a problem." No, it wasn't the mis-spellings.
I will be brief.
1) I take 7 meds/day for high BP and diabetes. If I didn't have insurance, I just wouldn't take them, you wouldn't see me on the evening news protesting "free" everything.
2) Due to Dr's "superior" views of themselves (gyno/cardiologist/GP) have forced me to think this way. Almost losing our first child, gyno going through a divorce, wasn't paying attention, his partner picked up the pieces. Cardio talking down to me when asking questions after heart attack. "You are more in tune with your heart now that you've had a..." Same jerk was giving my wife BP meds when she didn't need them, passed out and fell flat on her face from 7 steps up. Spinal surgery that I referenced in first post was needed. He wouldn't admit to making an error.
3) Major problems the day she fell at Hartford Hosp, supposedly an elite trauma center. Fell at 0800, at Mid-State ER at 0900, transferred to Hartford ER at 1900, was not attended to until 2000. Yes, I was in their face about it. Was told others were before her. She was brought in on a back board and left for almost an hour before they took her off it. (they only put her back on the board to move her to Hartford)
Healtcare is doomed if the the gov't takes any more control of it. I saw this last June 28, 2008, asking first and then insisting that she be taken care of. Two doctors said "others are ahead of her" and "write a detailed letter to the CEO." The ER supervisor was in over his head.
Was I brief, no. But I, too, will exit stage left and you folks discuss the issues that affect you most. When I read some of the views it touched a nerve. God bless those that can stand the sight/smell of blood and other things, for I know that I had trouble just looking at her incision changing her bandage post-op.
Also, if not forbidden, Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukah along with a safe and Happy New Year.
Murmer wrote:Okay. I understand. Out of respect for you all I will leave this forum. It might help, though, if you made it clear that if you're not a nurse you're not welcome. Maybe you have made that clear and I just missed. I wish all of you the best. You have difficult, sometimes impossible jobs. And I do respect what you do.
All are welcome but not at the price of bashing those of us that do our best in providing optimum healthcare.
I'd think the mods here would agree that any heated discussions are more appropriate in the rubber room section. My main concern is this very good thread has gone off topic. This thread is not about the demise of our healtcare system, or how awful doctors & nurses are to their patients.
Murmur, don't go away mad. Just go... J/K Seriously, if you have a hot topic take it to the rubber room.
dintym wrote:Looks like I hit a nerve. But here it the quote the made my blood boil: "If the spouce is against it but the patient dosen't care then the spouce is the only one with a problem." No, it wasn't the mis-spellings.
I will be brief.
1) I take 7 meds/day for high BP and diabetes. If I didn't have insurance, I just wouldn't take them, you wouldn't see me on the evening news protesting "free" everything.
2) Due to Dr's "superior" views of themselves (gyno/cardiologist/GP) have forced me to think this way. Almost losing our first child, gyno going through a divorce, wasn't paying attention, his partner picked up the pieces. Cardio talking down to me when asking questions after heart attack. "You are more in tune with your heart now that you've had a..." Same jerk was giving my wife BP meds when she didn't need them, passed out and fell flat on her face from 7 steps up. Spinal surgery that I referenced in first post was needed. He wouldn't admit to making an error.
3) Major problems the day she fell at Hartford Hosp, supposedly an elite trauma center. Fell at 0800, at Mid-State ER at 0900, transferred to Hartford ER at 1900, was not attended to until 2000. Yes, I was in their face about it. Was told others were before her. She was brought in on a back board and left for almost an hour before they took her off it. (they only put her back on the board to move her to Hartford)
Healtcare is doomed if the the gov't takes any more control of it. I saw this last June 28, 2008, asking first and then insisting that she be taken care of. Two doctors said "others are ahead of her" and "write a detailed letter to the CEO." The ER supervisor was in over his head.
Was I brief, no. But I, too, will exit stage left and you folks discuss the issues that affect you most. When I read some of the views it touched a nerve. God bless those that can stand the sight/smell of blood and other things, for I know that I had trouble just looking at her incision changing her bandage post-op.
Also, if not forbidden, Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukah along with a safe and Happy New Year.
Dinty, signing off.
Sir, all your concerns/complaints are real & valid. I regret you & your's have received such poor healthcare. However, I can assure you [IMHO] the situations you shared with us are NOT the norm. Do similar patient experiences exist? YES. I'm sorry but they do. I would be lying, otherwise.
On a side note, do all military recruiters lie? No, however I'd be lying if I said recruiters always 100% of the time educate potential recruits to the fullest extent they deserve. I do know of recruiters with the highest of integrity. Therefore, to say all recruiters are liars just to meet quotas would be entirely false. My point being not all MD's, RN's, etc. belittle patients, or otherwise treat them inappropriately.
In my nursing programs I've always been taught to advocate for the patient, promote empowerment of the patient, and respect the patient as an individual, and not as a medical diagnosis. I can tell you this is not always an easy task with some of our demanding patients. Yet, as professionals we try to remember issues like patient transference, change in body image, feelings of pending doom, etc. No one, and I mean no one has faced such a challenge in upholding these patient care principles as I during my 15 months of providing healthcare to Iraqi detainees.
As nurses, and fellow healthcare professionals here on this site we seek each others support. The kind of support that will maintain our integrity & compassion towards our patients, there family members, as well as our team members.
Dinty, please remember that there are good healthcare folks. I appreciate your wish of happy holidays & the same to you & your's.
3eyes wrote:1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
Are you for real? I find it hard to believe those are serious questions. Are you a moderater trying to stimulate more posts? You dont have to be a nurse to know the answers to those questions.
dintym wrote:I am not in the medical profession, but have been by my wife's side for 9 major operations and 1 outpatient knee surgery. I am her advocate because 1)anything the doctor/nurse staff says/does is gospel to her; 2)is afraid of insulting a doctor by questioning their judgement; 3)what I have experienced myself with hospital stays makes me suspect anybody who enters the room: doctor or doctor wanna-be, nurse or nurse underling.
Doctors are like mechanics, they try this or that. If that doesn't work, after paying for the first try, I'll try something else. Nurses, real nurses, are worth their weight in gold, but they are a dying breed. Their replacements are not the same, many times lack common sense, don't have a real grasp of the human body mechanics, and doubt they have a real grasp of life itself. Male or female, if you can't change your own oil or tire, you can't be a good nurse.
To stick to the topic, male nurses attending female patients, is where I DO have problem, as I do with female nurses with male patients. I would refuse a female bathing me or inserting/removing a catheter. I start with a situation that happened to me being prepped for an angiogram at Hartford Hospital in Aug, 2006. A female nurse was shaving my left leg/groin with only a towel over my genitals. I was talking to her and the others as they arranged for the procedure and noticed that she purposely bumped up against my penis 3 or 4 times while shaving me. Because of the whole whirlwind atmosphere I didn't pay attention to this nor say anything. It was later that I thought about this and how it happened in the open with others in the OR but without any other person near the table.
If this can happen to a male in the open, what about a female patient alone in a room with a male nurse or doctor? What about the time the unconscious female is being wheeled back to her room? My wife had a bad fall and required a hospital stay for observation. The PA asked if they had done a rectal exam in the ER upon arrival (spinal injury) which they had done, but didn't mark it on the chart. The PA (for the doctor), a male, insisted that he do another, which he did, without anyone else in the room. I objected to this later, but he just looked at me like I didn't matter. She later had lamnioplasty and I was in the room as much a they would let me. Usually from 6 am to 10/11 pm. I watched and listened to everything. When she returned from surgery about 9pm she had the "air-bags" on her legs but no pump. When I finally had to leave at midnight, I asked where the pump was. The staff didn't seem to concerned about it, but I insisted they get one or call a supervisor. They then went to another floor to find one. I caught several times forgetting doses of pain meds. My wife, in her stupor from the pain, wouldn't have said anything. Her reply was, "oh their busy, they just forgot."
It is because of such arrogance that I don't trust any medical personnel for anything, doing things just to cover their butts (thanks to lawyers like Al Gore) and those that think they know it all. I have chosen to refuse, if able, any medical help. If I am conscious, I will not let anyone touch me. If unconscious, I have given my wife permisson to deny me any medical help. I'd rather die of my injury/medical problem than have procedures done to me that would embarrass me. My biggest fear is a foley catheter by a female who doesn't have the same plumbing as I do and that may be pissed off at men because of past life experiences.
OH PUULEEAASE! This is the second post on this forum that I just cant believe is for real.
Lvnguy wrote:Are you for real? I find it hard to believe those are serious questions. Are you a moderater trying to stimulate more posts? You dont have to be a nurse to know the answers to those questions.
kimmiejs wrote:If a patient that is mentally competent refuses treatment whether it be medications, a procedure, or a bath to name a few this person could actually charge someone with assault. When a competent person refuses treatment, no matter what it is, ask questions regarding their reasons behind the refusal and document.
Whenever I have to place a foley on a male or do anything that could have their genitals exposed I always have another person in the room with me. This protects both the patient and myself.
I would think having another person in the room would make things worse-Most of the problems are about modesty-so what is wrong with a patient being modest? I have found most female nurses pretty callused about patient modesty-especially male modesty.It's pretty easy to be indignant when your the clothed one in the discussion. I personally prefer males nurses-you would not believe the flack I get on that-It's even worse for young preteen and teen males-a total disregard for their modesty. Now I understand that you get busy, and perhaps just forget-But those of us on the patient side do not understand how you cannot understand out extreme discomfort. I for one do not go to the doctor for long periods of time because of the female tirade I get when i demand privacy and my male doctor. Just becaue you have seen it all, hundreds of time before, doesn't negate our anxiety, discomfort and our indignation over your apparent total disregard for our privacy.
AmandaWIRN wrote:Attitude like this make our jobs as nurses 10 times more difficult.....
If you have such disdain and dislike of healthcare professionals, why are you choosing to come to a site made for and by nurses??? I'm sure you could find a conspiracy theorist, medicine-hating forum to post on somewhere....
There was no hate or attack in his rendition on what happened-he merely stated a facton what happened to him and his wife. It was pretty sad and it happens mopre than you guys want to admit. Don't yopu think it is healthy to hear what we have happen to us? Aren't we suppose to listen and learn?
Nurses and Doctors are accountable and unfortunately it's worse than you know. My Daughter is a Nurse in Oncology-Oh-My God-I had no Idea how much responsibility she had or how hard she worked.
There have been many many time when she made a point to accompany a family member to the Doctor or Hospital and she was totally sick at how much she saw, and how much the Nurses disregarded the privacy of the patient and let them know it in no uncertain terms. It was-surreal.
I am sorry if you feel attacked, there are thousands of wonderful, competent, thoughtful Nurses out there-but a lot more than you realize who are not.
i think it depends on the patient..if he/she refuses,then so be it..let a female nurse do it..it is not a big deal for me since it is expectedto some patient primarily due to cultural/religion differences...:)
I joined in this discussion some time ago. It's interesting to see those that are upset with the fact they might be or have been challenged with regard to the subject. When it comes to a male performing anything on a female that requires exposure to breasts or genitals, a female should be present. When my wife goes to the gyno, there's always a female nurse present. Even for a breast exam with her primary doc, a nurse is there. What changes when the setting is a hospital room?
Anyway, as a male, a female can take vitals, give meds, etc. But when it comes to underneath the johnny, it'll be a male. That's me. No woman will give me a catheter. No questions about body functions, nothing.
Actually with Obama-deathcare coming down the pike, I doubt I'll ever have a chance to argue with anyone over this subject. I'm over 55, so no healthcare for me. Might as well stop my 4 bp meds, two diuretics, diabetes meds and head meds now. Some bureaucrat will dictate what care I get and it won't be much except end of life counseling.
Merry Christmas to all, be safe in your jobs. Hope 2010 is happy and healthy for you and yours.
dintym wrote:I joined in this discussion some time ago. It's interesting to see those that are upset with the fact they might be or have been challenged with regard to the subject. When it comes to a male performing anything on a female that requires exposure to breasts or genitals, a female should be present. When my wife goes to the gyno, there's always a female nurse present. Even for a breast exam with her primary doc, a nurse is there. What changes when the setting is a hospital room?
Anyway, as a male, a female can take vitals, give meds, etc. But when it comes to underneath the johnny, it'll be a male. That's me. No woman will give me a catheter. No questions about body functions, nothing.
Actually with Obama-deathcare coming down the pike, I doubt I'll ever have a chance to argue with anyone over this subject. I'm over 55, so no healthcare for me. Might as well stop my 4 bp meds, two diuretics, diabetes meds and head meds now. Some bureaucrat will dictate what care I get and it won't be much except end of life counseling.
Merry Christmas to all, be safe in your jobs. Hope 2010 is happy and healthy for you and yours.
I'm sorry that you view things so negatively. Not that it's great but my experience is a little different; Obama or otherwise. Good luck.
honestly its ok but in todays world i suggest for either another person to be in the room. i can tell you this cause im being charged for sexual assualt. please please please dont put yourself through this pain. have someone else with you when doing this.
Hi All:
I am not a nurse but someone who sells to the medical profession , more specifically Hospitals, so I see tons every day.
A few comments if I can;
I more often than not, agree with Murmer. I find it pretty ridiculous that The nursing profession desperately wants to portray how androgynous they are when it comes to patient modesty issues. It's not like the PT's are cars lined up in a mechanic's shop!!! For many, this is their first time in a hospital, vulnerable, scared, nervous and generally very modest. It doesn't help that " You have seen it all", the PT is the one being exposed here while you the professional remain clothed. I continually observe:
-Nurses ( both genders, although the female nurses are the most egregious)
bathing , undressing, cathing, their pt's in full view of everyone without any regard for the PT's modesty
-I have seen and overheard direst requests for same gender care and the pt was told it was not available, when in fact it was.
-Patients exposed on gurney's without any consideration from the nursing staff in full view of everyone on the floor-yesterday a male was wheeled nude into the shower area , dam I felt sorry for him!!!
-Physical exams being conducted by Doctors with the nursing staff present much to the discomfort and embarrassment of the PT, both genders tooo!!
( I have hard the Doctors actually tell the Pts we have seen it all and not to be childish about it, were " Professionals)"
-Especially in Er, no consideration is given the male PT there, with the exception of the females Pt's, who are given every opportunity to have their modesty protected. I have seen the double standard, it exists and it is pretty common!
-It's is the exception not the norm IMHO for a nurse to ask permission to do something. They pretty much just think because they are a nurse they have automatic permission to disrobe, wash, do peri care, cath, and inspect the Pt regardless of their modesty or preference for same gender care.
IMHO, when a PT says no, it means just that, no. Just because you have lost your modesty does not mean the PT has lol.
So please, stop with the whining already, people deserve their modesty if they want it, its the only thing they have left in most cases. And I gotta tell you, if a female nurse tried to force something on me it would not be a pretty sight either. If you cannot see things from the Pt's point of view, it may be time for you to try another profession.
It is not in fact , all about you, it is in fact, all about the Patient.
Having said that, I have nothing but respect for the Nursing profession!!!!
I think CaDad makes some valid points. We're zeroing in on the modesty issue here, but it's more than that. There are medical professionals whose temperments range from indifferent to callous. I'd like to say this in response; What seems to draw the most attention especially to the "outsider" is the negative image. What goes un-noticed is all of the right things going on.
In my nearly thirty years of experience, I've both witnessed and been victim of those occurrances cited on his list however, proportionately, they have been relatively uncommon. The positive, and extremely positive, experiences have far out outnumbered the negative.
SoldierNurse
I apologize if I stepped on a few toes and Yes!!! I do have serious respect for the Profession.Ricu hit it on the head, I am only telling you what I observe and it is in fact out of proportion to the unfathomable , unselfish, incredible sacrifices that Nurses in fact make. IMHO, There are many a Doctor who is still in practice because of the watchful and caring eye of the Nurse protecting the PT. Like a lot of things in life, it is sometimes the little things that can make or break a profession, an industry , a product or an individual. I only want to inform and let you know what a significant amount of people on the other side sees and feels, and yes there is always 2 sides to every argument to.It is all about balance, at the end of the day , we can and do loose some of our patience, humanity, caring and common decency, your only human and not Godlike. With all that you have to contend with, with all the hard work and courage you exhibit in your daily work life, with all the incredible responsibility you shoulder, with all the emotional drama interacting with a diverse and sometimes disrespectful public, I do indeed am humbled by all you do, and YES, I do have the highest respect for you and your profession. It is not about you but about a small but vitally important of your profession I wanted to comment on, to bring to your attention the plight of the PT, to remind you of their experiences . After all, are we not all about the Pt, their recovery , saving their life and limbs?
I also get a lot of feedback from Doctors and Nurses and sometimes I do get the inevitable roasting, complaints, and I have to understand it is not in fact me, but what I am doing and what I represent that is being called into question, I hope I make sense.
CaDad wrote:SoldierNurse
YES, I do have the highest respect for you and your profession. It is not about you but about a small but vitally important of your profession I wanted to comment on, to bring to your attention the plight of the PT, to remind you of their experiences . After all, are we not all about the Pt, their recovery , saving their life and limbs?
One thing we're constantly reminded of in practice is "to listen to your patient" especially when things are "not quite right"
You may get offended when I say "you are preaching to the choir."
There is much that goes on in hospitals and nursing homes that you don't know about, most don't want to know about, and that hospitals would fire us if we did let you know about.
In short, we do see exactly what you are talking about, in more explicit detail than you think. However, whistle blowing is not a well protected stance these days. Most healthcare professionals are reluctant to risk their jobs, licenses, livelihoods to bring more to light.
CaDad, your last post could have been included in your original post. I will not deny there are some nurses with no regard for the patient's privacy. My area is critical care nurse but have also worked in the OR. Even when patients were in the OR under anesthesia I respected their privacy. Takes very little effort to keep 'those' areas covered. LOL, I respected Iraqi detainee patient's privacy.
BTW, CaDad you should invite your daughter to this site.
I have in fact invited her, she is in hematology and oncology and the dynamics are significantly different, she is looking over the board to see if she has an interest. She knows I am a radical lol, but understands. This last Friday I actually walked over to close the curtain on some poor guy getting a physical, he shouted out " Thanks man, I really appreciate that!!!!
It is too bad that the people doing all the work cannot speak up to make positive change, I never actually realized the profession was so hamstrung!!!!
Everyone I work with knows how I feel about pt privacy and they always smile when I am around, the sometimes call me the modcop lol.
3eyes wrote:1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
I personally don't think it is appropriate for male nurses to give bath to female patients period. I don't feel that male gynecologists are appropriate either so I am not biased about nurses. Male nurses also run the risk that they could get in trouble of being falsely accused of sexual misconduct even if they didn't do anything wrong.
One man was very upset that a male nurse cleaned after his elderly mother's bowel movement. She had Alzhemier's Diease, but she was aware enough about a male nurse cleaning after her that she was so terrified and upset.
I think it is best that a female family member or the husband of a woman gives her bath. If not, a female nurse should do it.
Male nurses are in demand so there definitely needs to be more nurses. You should look under male patient modestyon Google and you will find there is a big demand for male nurses by male patients. The truth is many men are very modest and don't want female nurses to do intimate procedures on them such as urinary catheterizations and baths. Some men have backed out of having surgeries such as vasectomy because they could not be assured that there would be no female nurses. I think that they should primarily assign male nurses to work with male patients for intimate procedures. Male nurses could work with female patients, but only do non-intimate procedures on them such as changing their IV bags, giving them shots, etc.
With all respect in regards to ANY male doctor. Historically, women were NOT 'allowed' to do ANY work of this type, thus the dearth of MALE doctors. There is two sides to this post: Male nurses taking care of FEMALE patients, and female nurses taking care of MALE patients. Staffing ratios may not be conducive, and the list can go on and on. Oh, and may I add the economy? hiring is pretty slow around here, if at all. Thanks for not getting the thread closed, as I see everyone is civil. Let's keep it that way!
Speaking from the other side of the bed, I have to say that I have had male nurses care for me at times when it was necessary. I was in a car accident, and in the er they cut all my clothes off, put in a foley, rolled me around butt nekkid looking for injuries. Before a cast of thousands. Was I embarrassed, well yes, but I was more afraid I had suffered a serious injury. Another time I had a breast biopsy done. The CRNA and Circulating nurses were both guys. What the heck, I was going to be asleep, so what was the big deal? I have worked along side many men in nursing, and without exception, they are all professional to the nth degree. That being said, if a patient objects, you should find some alternative. I had one of my co-workers ask me if I would give a suppository to his patient, a 17 year old girl. He just felt the girl would be more comfortable with a mom-like person doing such a rude procedure. I was happy to help, not because I like giving suppositories, but I cared a lot about our young teen trauma patients. But really, we need to move away from the whole idea that only certain genders can do certain things.
CaDad wrote:Hi All:
I am not a nurse but someone who sells to the medical profession , more specifically Hospitals, so I see tons every day.
A few comments if I can;
I more often than not, agree with Murmer. I find it pretty ridiculous that The nursing profession desperately wants to portray how androgynous they are when it comes to patient modesty issues. It's not like the PT's are cars lined up in a mechanic's shop!!! For many, this is their first time in a hospital, vulnerable, scared, nervous and generally very modest. It doesn't help that " You have seen it all", the PT is the one being exposed here while you the professional remain clothed. I continually observe:
-Nurses ( both genders, although the female nurses are the most egregious)
bathing , undressing, cathing, their pt's in full view of everyone without any regard for the PT's modesty
-I have seen and overheard direst requests for same gender care and the pt was told it was not available, when in fact it was.
-Patients exposed on gurney's without any consideration from the nursing staff in full view of everyone on the floor-yesterday a male was wheeled nude into the shower area , dam I felt sorry for him!!!
-Physical exams being conducted by Doctors with the nursing staff present much to the discomfort and embarrassment of the PT, both genders tooo!!
( I have hard the Doctors actually tell the Pts we have seen it all and not to be childish about it, were " Professionals)"
-Especially in Er, no consideration is given the male PT there, with the exception of the females Pt's, who are given every opportunity to have their modesty protected. I have seen the double standard, it exists and it is pretty common!
-It's is the exception not the norm IMHO for a nurse to ask permission to do something. They pretty much just think because they are a nurse they have automatic permission to disrobe, wash, do peri care, cath, and inspect the Pt regardless of their modesty or preference for same gender care.
IMHO, when a PT says no, it means just that, no. Just because you have lost your modesty does not mean the PT has lol.
So please, stop with the whining already, people deserve their modesty if they want it, its the only thing they have left in most cases. And I gotta tell you, if a female nurse tried to force something on me it would not be a pretty sight either. If you cannot see things from the Pt's point of view, it may be time for you to try another profession.
It is not in fact , all about you, it is in fact, all about the Patient.
Having said that, I have nothing but respect for the Nursing profession!!!!
WOW! I have never seen any of what you are describing! I don't work in the ER, so I can't specifically address that, but in the areas I have worked if anyone wheeled a nude patient down the hall to the shower, or any other of the various things you described, boy they would have gotten an earful, if not written up. Now in regard to my previous post, I was in a car accident. I was airlifted to the trauma center. I had what they call a "hot belly". Always suspect a spinal injury until proven otherwise. So yeah, they do pretty much strip ya down to what God gave ya in the trauma room. Yes there are a lot of people in there. It is their job to identify any injury. If they don't, you could die, be paralyzed, etc. I suppose some people would rather be dead or paralyzed than have a dozen strangers see their you know what. I'm not one of them. I've never met anyone who was.
I see nothing wrong with this but every nurse should wear gloves when doing it. euro wedding dresses plus size wedding dressesI can't imagine a nurse not wearing gloves when giving a bed bath. Asking for permission is polite and helps avoid conflicts.
Here, Here for this male nurse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are my hero!!!!!!!!!!!
indyrn wrote:Female nurses have bathed male patients for years and no one has had a problem with it.
I am a male nurse and have had to bathe female patients and never once had anyone make an issue of it. Further, I did not become a nurse just so I could a see or bathe naked female.
It's time to get over these issue and remember its about patient care, period.
I just hate it when male nurses ask me to put a foley in. I think this is just an excuse to not have to do it!! These male nurses need to buck up & be professional. When I'm asked I truely believe they are not professional enough to do any nursing. Just the facts.
I am a male RN and agree with you on the matter of doing the job regardless however, be careful about drawing a hard line on this subject. We should be looking at this from the patient perspective. If we are intuitive, we can all determine even if nothing is said, when a person is excessively anxious and would clearly prefer that personal care be done by a same gender healthcare professional. Whenever it is reasonably possible, those accommodations should be made.
I know this is an old...no, it's an ancient (by internet standards) thread, but it is still an issue, especially for those of us who are new to the profession. Simply speaking, I am doing my best to overcome the cultural taboos that have been burned into my brain.
Since this is my first post, I think I should tell you a little bit about me. I am a military veteran, and a retired police officer. I received my first healthcare training as an EMT in 1978 while I was stationed with the Second Military Police Company, Second Infantry Division in Korea. I kept up my EMT training while I was a police officer, even when my superiors objected to it because they thought it increased the departments liability.
Even though I have done physical and mental things that are far harder than giving a female patient a bed bath, because of cultural taboos, it appears that this is my achilles heel when it comes to nursing. I am trying to overcome that, because when I attempt to demonstrate this skill in the lab, I freeze up and just can't function.
It's not that I haven't dealt with females in the past. I'm married, I have two daughters, I work around women with the major retail chain that I currently work for, and God knows, I arrested a number of women for various legal reasons. Of course, in that capacity I didn't ask their permission before I handcuffed them, and took them into custody. Some of them were even drunk or high to the point they lost all of their inhibitions and decided it was a god idea to get naked and walk around in public. But for some reason, this is different to me and I need to overcome that if I want to continue in this profession.
I chose this profession because I do care about people, and I want to do the best job I can. My goal is to pursue my nursing career with the Veterans Administration, so I need some input from male nurses on how they overcame the cultural taboos. I also invite female nurses to comment as well.
Even though most veterans are men, the VA hospital I go to does have some female patients. For example, my wife is also a veteran and goes to the VA for care. If they stay at the VA, they will need the same kind of care as anyone else, so I really need your help to get beyond this. I don't want this to be my undoing before I even get started.
Great post! We have some common background and I'd venture to guess that we're both products of the American culture and about the same age which have some significance in terms of how we view modesty. Working in the direct patient care arena, we go far into the comfort zone of protective space when seeing and touching people and that presents a set of challenges that each of us experience differently but we experience them nonetheless.
Bathing is probably the most anxiety provoking thing that a nurse especially male, will do for many reasons, first because it involves nudity, second because there are so many sexual connotations around the "bed bath" and third because providing personal care for anyone, regardless of gender is something that men in most cultures are not socialized in. I made an observation early on in my career that male health care professionals are more anxious about exposing their female patients than the patients are and I think the reason for this is because the women are used to male physicians examining them. Speaking now on behalf of female nurses, I've heard them say that it is just as difficult for them to get used to exposing and touching their male patients.
In the end, all nurses eventually become reasonably comfortable with seeing and touching their patients intimately and it is at this point that the job gets easier. The more at ease you are with this aspect of your work makes your patient more at ease with you doing it. That said, nurses do have to be careful because they can become so desensitized that they forget that they aren't handling patients and put their hands in awkward places.
A funny story I can tell is about a time when teaching bleeding cessation strategies at a first aid class and was discussing pressure points. As an EMT, you know that live victims are frequently used and this was no exception. I was showing where various pressure points are and how to apply pressure and proceeded to touch and apply pressure to each area on my student victim- including the femoral artery. Having many years of experience in Critical Care, I have a very educated hand and know just how to locate distal pulses especially the femoral artery and apply pressure so it was very different from the flat-palm press that the book teaches. Fortunately I knew the individual and while he was surprised when I put my hand on his groin crease, he was okay with it and we all laughed.
Thanks for your response Ricu, that takes a huge weight off of my shoulders. Common background, perhaps, if you were born in chicago, raised in Southern California in the L.A. suburbs, and hung out at the beach during the summer time.
One thing we both have in common is that we both trained new people, I was an FTO (Field Training Officer), and did my dead level best at making my trainee as comfortable as I could while they learned. You apparently have that same philosophy as demonstrated by your post. Unfortunately, I'm not getting that same response from the instructors I'm experiencing at Chaffey College. I expressed my anxiety in this part of the learning process, and the response was a somewhat curt "get over it". It led me to believe that it was an issue exclusive to me, and not other people. The problem is, the more I became concerned about it, the more anxious I got. So thanks for that, I think you just saved me from failing.
I was born outside of New York City, grew up on the Jersey Shore (long before Snookie and the Sitch...), and hung out on those beaches and was also an EMT. I'm married and have three grown kids, too. Yes, I have done training and in fact, am a part time nursing instructor who definitely hates to hear stories about hard-ass instructors. These control freaks believe that no pain-no gain treatment prepares students for the rigors of the job but all it does is intimidate and make them more anxious than ever. There is a time for gentle handling and it is early on in nursing school. Students are exposed to a lot of intense stuff and need to process it safely- like in the lab or classroom. I will tell you this, even though it might not seem evident right now, your experience as a police officer gives you a huge advantage. Meanwhile, don't hesitate to post any questions or concerns here and I'll try to help but also know that like when you were a rookie cop, you will find a mentor in the nursing field.
R
(before
Chaffey Student wrote:Thanks for your response Ricu, that takes a huge weight off of my shoulders. Common background, perhaps, if you were born in chicago, raised in Southern California in the L.A. suburbs, and hung out at the beach during the summer time.
One thing we both have in common is that we both trained new people, I was an FTO (Field Training Officer), and did my dead level best at making my trainee as comfortable as I could while they learned. You apparently have that same philosophy as demonstrated by your post. Unfortunately, I'm not getting that same response from the instructors I'm experiencing at Chaffey College. I expressed my anxiety in this part of the learning process, and the response was a somewhat curt "get over it". It led me to believe that it was an issue exclusive to me, and not other people. The problem is, the more I became concerned about it, the more anxious I got. So thanks for that, I think you just saved me from failing.
We are practically in eachother's back yard. I can give you a tip or two on how to give a bed bath to a person of the opposite sex while making sure the patient's dignity is preserved and you own sense of modesty as well.
I think you need to take a deep breath and relax. A nurse friend of mine always says that when any task causes us stree we should stop and take our own pulse then start. After you make sure you are breathing take thetime to think about what makes you so nervous. IT obvious that you have encountered naked women before and very bravely I might add - As a psych nurse I have seen my share of nakedness most of it somewhat disturbing, but under normal nursing circumstances you can go at this task in a way that is comfortable for you and the patient.
If your consumer (That what we call patients in my field) is conscious and able to help start with a warm bath blanket and cover the him/her completely. Then uncover each area to be washed do the task and recover the area until the whole body is clean. If they have use of their hands and can clean the more sentive areas breasts and perineum on their own let them. ALway talk to your patient even if they are unconscious explaining what you are doing each step of the way.
We women have to learn how to give a bed bath to men -some of whome behave in a quite Randy fassion. Other's acn be embarrassed. Other's don't want a female but sure don"t want a male as they (Mostly older) view any man in the field as homosexual. So you can see we all struggle with this.
For the most part, I'd like to think that I am helping men in nursing overcome the "effeminate" male stereotype, because everyone I know would never consider me effeminate by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I found an article on the "BSN to MSN" website, that talks about the ten most famous men in nursing. What it basically says is that up until the 1500's, nursing was a predominantly male field. Those who chose nursing, were either some form of clergy, or in the military. Did you know that Walt Whitman was a nurse ? He was a volunteer nurse during the Civil War after his brother was injured. So I'm not concerned about the stereotype, I know better. The support I'm getting here is huge, and for that I'm grateful.
Ricu, I understand how law enforcement and nursing ties together, but interestingly enough, the "veteran" nurses that I'm learning from can't seem to make the connection. Perhaps you can help me out and give me some pointers that might help me help them make the connection. I know that writing a care plan needs to be clear, complete, and concise, just like in any factual report. And dealing with people on a professional and somewhat authoritative (not authoritarian) level is part of the job. I also know that nursing is a team effort just like law enforcement, and just like law enforcement, nursing deals with people who are at a low point in their life or perhaps even facing death because they are sick or injured. I'm also well aware that the public tends to second guess the decision a nurse makes, and nurses are in the cross hairs of some opportunistic people who would love nothing more than to put their finger on what they perceive is a mistake and find an equally opportunistic lawyer that is just hungry enough to sue a nurse for malpractice. I've seen a lot of similarities between nursing and law enforcement as to the who, what, where, what, why, and how a person became sick or injured. So nursing requires some detective work to help a person get better. Since you obviously have worked with law enforcement where you live, I'm sure you know all of this. But is there that one thing I can take to the old timers at my school that will help them connect the dots ? Since I'm new to nursing, as an insider, what would you suggest ?
hppygr8ful, what I did was type out, in my own words, the procedure for doing a bed bath. In my step by step procedure, I make sure I let the patient know what I'm going to do, and make sure that I keep the patient covered as much as possible, taking into consideration their warmth, comfort, and modesty. Did I miss anything ?
The bed bath procedure is three pages long, in a 12 point font with each paragraph single spaced. Before I started this, I would have never believed that bathing someone would be so complicated. And by the way, this procedure doesn't even cover pericare. That's another two pages right there.
When I think about it, I really don't have the words to describe this new experience. I guess I could say it's humbling, makes me take a good look at who I am, and I have found far more respect for nurses than what I already had. I'm glad I chose to become a nurse.
Your determination to give insight is admirable and will take you far in the field of nursing but I think in this particular setting, you're not going to speed the process. It doesn't appear that your instructors believe they can learn anything new especially from a lowly "student," and might try to make your life harder because of your persistence. They could also be of the opinion that men aren't cut out for nursing and be looking for any reason to knock you down. As a matter of survival, it could be in your best interest to fly under the radar. Keep your chin up. So far, I thing you are well on the way to becoming a great nurse.
Chaffey Student wrote:For the most part, I'd like to think that I am helping men in nursing overcome the "effeminate" male stereotype, because everyone I know would never consider me effeminate by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I found an article on the "BSN to MSN" website, that talks about the ten most famous men in nursing. What it basically says is that up until the 1500's, nursing was a predominantly male field. Those who chose nursing, were either some form of clergy, or in the military. Did you know that Walt Whitman was a nurse ? He was a volunteer nurse during the Civil War after his brother was injured. So I'm not concerned about the stereotype, I know better. The support I'm getting here is huge, and for that I'm grateful.
Ricu, I understand how law enforcement and nursing ties together, but interestingly enough, the "veteran" nurses that I'm learning from can't seem to make the connection. Perhaps you can help me out and give me some pointers that might help me help them make the connection. I know that writing a care plan needs to be clear, complete, and concise, just like in any factual report. And dealing with people on a professional and somewhat authoritative (not authoritarian) level is part of the job. I also know that nursing is a team effort just like law enforcement, and just like law enforcement, nursing deals with people who are at a low point in their life or perhaps even facing death because they are sick or injured. I'm also well aware that the public tends to second guess the decision a nurse makes, and nurses are in the cross hairs of some opportunistic people who would love nothing more than to put their finger on what they perceive is a mistake and find an equally opportunistic lawyer that is just hungry enough to sue a nurse for malpractice. I've seen a lot of similarities between nursing and law enforcement as to the who, what, where, what, why, and how a person became sick or injured. So nursing requires some detective work to help a person get better. Since you obviously have worked with law enforcement where you live, I'm sure you know all of this. But is there that one thing I can take to the old timers at my school that will help them connect the dots ? Since I'm new to nursing, as an insider, what would you suggest ?
hppygr8ful, what I did was type out, in my own words, the procedure for doing a bed bath. In my step by step procedure, I make sure I let the patient know what I'm going to do, and make sure that I keep the patient covered as much as possible, taking into consideration their warmth, comfort, and modesty. Did I miss anything ?
The bed bath procedure is three pages long, in a 12 point font with each paragraph single spaced. Before I started this, I would have never believed that bathing someone would be so complicated. And by the way, this procedure doesn't even cover pericare. That's another two pages right there.
When I think about it, I really don't have the words to describe this new experience. I guess I could say it's humbling, makes me take a good look at who I am, and I have found far more respect for nurses than what I already had. I'm glad I chose to become a nurse.
He needs to be pure in heart just the same as a female caregiver would be. Remember some females can't be trusted any more than men are. If the patient agrees to it and if the caregiver has gloves on and if the family is allowing it then it would be fine.
