I don't think the discipline for or even issue of a nursing license because of a criminal record should ever be a "black or white" circumstance. Obviously details of the conviction and subsequent conduct have to be taken into account. For the record and perhaps as an exception to my own rule; I struggle with convicted sex offenders working in the field of nursing. The pathology behind committing such an act doesn't get cuerd by doing time or doesn't get cured at all. The offender must not be in vulnerable situations ie; with children. In the case of nursing, the offender is always in a position of power over another and furthermore, has intimate physical contact with the individual. Homecare visiting makes that scenario even more dangerous because the patient is usually or frequently alone and sometimes mentally incompetent.
I may have told this story before but it fits well here. Many years ago while working as a department supervisor in another healthcare discipline, I hired a senior student to work perdiem. This student had a stellar academic record and outstanding clinical performance. He fit in and was well liked by the staff members and wanted to go full time after graduation. Perfect, right? Wrong. This individual had previously worked as a Registered Pharmacist and had been convicted of diverting schedule II drugs- Benzos. Nothing stood between him and the job but that history. Under the specific circumstance, I saw no issue with hiring him because even though he would be dispensing certain drugs, he would never have access to any controlled substances. After checking with HR, I got the green light to offer him a position. He appeared very anxious during his interview and wanting to be completely above board, even asked if I was aware of his conviction. I said yes and explained my reasoning for wanting to hire him and for believing that this would be a safe environment for him to work in, he was grateful; even moved to tears. He really believed that he would be in for a struggle but that didn't prove true. He had a very fortunate situation where I had seen him in action over a long period of time. Had he not appeared truly repentent, or less than an excellent student, or displayed less than optimal attitude and work ethic, he may have had that struggle. Some may think that even being in the environment where those druge are available would be tempting but he would have an easier time trying to traffic out on the streets; not in hospital. This guy never used, he diverted. I beleve it was a case of youthful stupidity coupled with easy, serious, cash. Perhaps a character flaw but after knowing this individual and workiing with him for ahwile, I believe such a character flaw can be corrected and in his case, was. While entirely true, I know this is more of a fairy tale than usual but it should serve to support the notion that second chances should be given when the circumstance is right for it.
R
Your co-worker's situation did turn out well. Unfortunately, some of the aforementioned cases may not have been one of those 'grey areas'.
I'm sure we'll hear more from others about this! :33:
I am on the fence about this article. Obviously if you are imprisoned for any misconduct, you should lose your RN license. But on the other side of the coin things such as convicted sex offenders.
The area of sex offenders I think is too broad. I was watching a news program of a young man who was convicted of a having sex with a minor. He was a couple of months older than his girlfriend and was busted having sex. He was 18 and she was 17. She is now is wife and mother of his two children. He is a convicted sex offender. He is not a RN but that is one example of how a sex offender could possibly hold a RN license.
As for DUI; I was firm believer that someone who would drink and drive should not be and RN. Here was my logic. If you cared so little about your life and well being that you would repeatedly get drunk and then drive your car, you cannot possibly care much amount me as a patient.
Well I have recently worked in an ICU and much of the staff drank, got drunk, and drove their vehicles. They came to work and cared greatly for their patients.
I guess the question then goes to, should your loss of livelihood be an appropriate punishment for drinking and driving? Does losing your RN license fulfill your obligation to the law if you get caught drinking and driving?
I am not a drinker by most all standards. I gave up boozing when I gave up the military many moons past, but I am still stuck with the issue of losing one’s livelihood for drinking and driving.
The article was written to get a reaction and to sell news papers. Therefore it is written so that the reader sides with the article.
When you have a couple of dozen (assuming CA has that many) people governing over 300k members, it is nearly impossible to monitor them all. Even searching names on a list to compare to your list of more than three hundred thousand is a bit impossible. Perhaps a computer could do it faster.
Bottom line: would we be comfortable paying 500 to 1000 dollars a year for your RN license so that the Board can afford appropriate staff to catch everyone and then investigate them all to see if there are grounds for revocation. Hmmmm.
I agree, this is a tough issue.
-John
They don't answer my emails or my snail mail letters. I can't get someone on the phone. My business with the board goes unattended, but people with criminal backgrounds can obtain and maintain licenses. I am not surprised at all.
On a side note...this reminds me that most states will not recognize CA RN license.
Can you clarify that somehow? First time I'd ever heard of that. :33:
I had only heard of the CA 30 unit option RN license not being accepted by other states. Otherwise, unless one is licensed in a compact state and going to another compact state, I thought all states require a person to endorse their license into the new state of residence. Another exception would be those who work for the VA. VA employees don't have to change their license if they continue to work for the VA. What else could you mean here? Please elaborate.:confused:
Would be interesting to hear what, if any, problems your friend with the Excelsior background runs into, when they try to get a license to practice in CA. I would think that their travel agency would take care of this situation for them one way or the other.
I'd like to comment on the issue around licensure especially as it pertains to educational requirements. I've long had issue with antiquated thinking around academia. There are many healthcare workers out there who have education which directly overlaps much of what is taught in nursing school. I know because I was one of them. After having no meaningful conversation with three local schools of nursing and through perserverence, I found the University of the State of New York School of Nursing- now Excelsior University. I completed this program in record time and flew through the NCLEX. Like every other Registered Nurse in the United States, I have met the requirements set by the ALN and have been granted the credential. I meet all licensure requirements for my state of residence and have never committed an act which would jeopardize my standing. By all reasonable- ane relevent standards, I should be able to secure a license to practice in any state of the union but cannot. What LEGITIMATE reason can any nursing board give for this?
Ya know, Ricu, I have no idea what the reasons are. However....when I do find something about what my state says, I will post it in the GA nurses thread.
Back to the regular thread.... :)
cougarnurse wrote:Ya know, Ricu, I have no idea what the reasons are. However....when I do find something about what my state says, I will post it in the GA nurses thread.
Back to the regular thread.... :)
Hi Cat,
I appreciate your interest in factfinding for those in the perdicament however, for the moment, I feel no compulsion to move. For the record, I think that more states accept "alternatively" acquired nursing degrees than do not.
Too bad for the loss.
R
How can some of you discriminate against the past of another? We are in a profession that is rooted in compassion, yet you offer none? Under some of your definitions a person has no chance at redemption. There are 71 million U.S. citizens with a criminal record. Only those with a criminal past are subject to government discrimination!
adamdsm wrote:How can some of you discriminate against the past of another? We are in a profession that is rooted in compassion, yet you offer none? Under some of your definitions a person has no chance at redemption. There are 71 million U.S. citizens with a criminal record. Only those with a criminal past are subject to government discrimination!
Hi Adam,
From your statement, it sounds like you would like all criminal activity to be considered essentially equal but I'm sure that's not what you mean. To my way of thinking, I cannot make a shoplifting or "white collar" conviction bear the same weight as assault and battery with deadly weapon, or sexual abuse.
Each conviction must be carefully considered and then compared against the individuals record. Anyone can make a mistake and certainly should be forgiven but that doesn't absolve the offender of making restitution. When offered, the person has to be deserving of that second chance especially when we're talking about a license to practice nursing. Individuals working in this profession are expected to be of high moral standing and extremely responsible.
We've spent a lot of time talking about drunk driving and while it sounds pretty innocent especially as a first offense, I myself, look at it pretty harshly. Does it warrant loss of nursing license? Not necessarily. It depends on how severely impaired the driver is. Regardless, it does deserve all other punishment rendered.
R
Ricu,
Of course not all crimes are created equal. However, when did they occur? A man with assault charge twenty years ago should be prevented from getting a job? Perhaps you are from another generation when arrests were made for serious crimes only. Today that is not the case. The judicial system is only concerned with convictions and not for the general good of all involved.
You would be hard pressed to find anyone who has not been in physical fight in their youth. Today young people are arrested for the same fights that previous generations were merely sent home for.
On another note, we live in a country that was created on the idea of new beginnings. A place of opportunity and freedom. A place where redemption is possible. Should we create a glass ceiling for those seeking redemption? Should we ration out freedom to those with mistakes in their past?
We all have and make mistakes, yours are not superior to anyone else's. Older generations lecture the younger on the value of experience. What they fail to mention is that "experience" is the name they give to their mistakes.
adamdsm wrote:Ricu,
Of course not all crimes are created equal. However, when did they occur? A man with assault charge twenty years ago should be prevented from getting a job? Perhaps you are from another generation when arrests were made for serious crimes only. Today that is not the case. The judicial system is only concerned with convictions and not for the general good of all involved.
You would be hard pressed to find anyone who has not been in physical fight in their youth. Today young people are arrested for the same fights that previous generations were merely sent home for.
On another note, we live in a country that was created on the idea of new beginnings. A place of opportunity and freedom. A place where redemption is possible. Should we create a glass ceiling for those seeking redemption? Should we ration out freedom to those with mistakes in their past?
We all have and make mistakes, yours are not superior to anyone else's. Older generations lecture the younger on the value of experience. What they fail to mention is that "experience" is the name they give to their mistakes.
Hi again,
Adam, you make some good points. I agree that legal action is taken on just about every infraction now and often to the extreme. Our society has become increasingly litigenous but we have ourselves to blame for that. Now, what do we do about it? I guess that's another thread.
Several of your comments seem to focus on fighting and I agree with you to a certain extent. A fistfight should just be broken up and the contenders sent home. If it ends there, all the better but I don't think it's that simple anymore because the intensity of anger is out of control now. It's no longer a black eye or bloody nose. People get badly hurt or killed in those simple bar fights. Last summer a guy received a compression fracture at a bar near me because somebody started hitting him with a hammer. A few weeks ago in the same town, a moody drunk walked into a Best Western with a can of gasoline to settle a score with his former buddy. So, back to your question. Does this scrappy kid get in a few fights and then straighten out or does he continue? Did he use a weapon? Did he severely injure or kill someone? A person's record of early, relatively minor offenses shouldn't impact employability in any profession but where that impact stops depends on the individual.
I like your statement too about new beginnings. This nation does offer new beginnings on a daily basis but sometimes we forget that a new beginning or fresh start, takes a lot of hard work.
R
Domestic Battery
I am a nursing student in Illinois, and I have a misdemeanor conviction on domestic battery. I was doing my clinical in one of the local hospitals for two months, but after the hospital did a background check, it came up with that "stain". The hospital does not want me there anymore. I pleaded guilty, under the advise of a lawyer, that was 10 years ago and is the only thing in my record. I tried expunging/sealing the record, but is not expungable/sealable. the only thing is a governor's clemency. that can take a few years and is not for sure. I don't know what to do, some have suggested write to the IDOH or BON in illinois. Anyone has any suggestions?
student1 wrote:I am a nursing student in Illinois, and I have a misdemeanor conviction on domestic battery. I was doing my clinical in one of the local hospitals for two months, but after the hospital did a background check, it came up with that "stain". The hospital does not want me there anymore. I pleaded guilty, under the advise of a lawyer, that was 10 years ago and is the only thing in my record. I tried expunging/sealing the record, but is not expungable/sealable. the only thing is a governor's clemency. that can take a few years and is not for sure. I don't know what to do, some have suggested write to the IDOH or BON in illinois. Anyone has any suggestions?
Hi student,
I'm sorry to hear that your prior conviction still haunts you. I wonder if your school advisor or clinical instructor can advocate for you because it's possible that you are being discriminated against. Additionally, even if there's no guarantee, it sounds as though pursuing the clemency route offers the best potential for relief and having a subsequent clean record will only help. Keep working hard. It will be worth your effort in the end.
Good Luck,
R
