Would love to know how some of you handle rude doctors, the ones that think every question is stupid; the ones that use every available opportunity to publicly humiliate. Last week, I had had enough and yelled right back, and the way my co-workers looked at me, I was half expecting to be sacked. It didn't happen, but I wonder if I potentially face valid administrative recrimination for speaking up for myself. Feedback greatly appreciated! <font color="purple"> </font>
Well, we have a whole forum for it here, if that tells you anything. Although, it is empty ???.
Anyway, I'm a new nurse, and male, so I'm A) probably naive, and B) probably get treated somewhat differently, but my outlook is this:
Treat me with respect. I am NOT under you. I work FOR this hospital. You do not. I DO NOT DO FOR you. Treat me with respect, and I'll treat you accordingly. If you do not, I'll tell you about it right then, and you'll look stupid. You might hate me, but I don't care. I'm not here to cater to you, I'm here to do my job, as are you. That involves us working together and cooperating pretty closely. If you can't treat me with decency, that will not work. I'm the one who should be PISSED at YOU because I spend half my time DECIPHERING your handwriting, trying to figure out what you are wanting for this patient, when it would make it easier on both of us, if you'd just print it plainly. Heck, the othe half of my time is spent covering my butt because of all the mistakes that happen as a result of your crappy handwriting, and the fact that you get pissed off when you have to get called to clarify. Heck, doctor, I'm mad at you because med errors happen because of your handwriting. I'm just all around pissed off about your handwriting.
You can see where I'm going with this. RANT, yes. I'm very adamant about doctor's handwriting. ONLY BECAUSE it is arrogance. If THEY REALLY cared that much, they'd make it 100% easier on THE NURSES THEY WORK WITH and save HOURS UPON HOURS of work for those nurses AND the hospitals paying them (which means they could save money in man (or woman:D) hours, and simply write where we can read it.
I mean, is that too much to ask? All I want is to be able to read the name of the drug you are telling me to give a patient. I JUST want to be able to read the amount of the drug, the route, etc., for my patient.
I MEAN, IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK? I just want to be able to read your handwriting, WITHOUT having to "get to know you" and WITHOUT having to "learn your style", and WITHOUT having to "confer with 10 other nurses", and WITHOUT having to "call you" to confirm it.
Is that too much to ask? If not, I'd also like to be able to read ALL of the orders you write PERTAINING TO THE HEALTH/CARE/SAFETY/WELLNESS/PROGRESS of your patient.
Hey DOC, let me know when you can do that, and then we'll talk about getting along.
That's my take. Yeah, it's kind of psycho...
But if you think about it, I HAVE A POINT. Why must we go out of our way, AND endanger patients because they can't take the time to write legibly? Heck, our WHOLE JOB is patient safety, and yet, they can't do one simple thing to contribute?
So, yeah, don't be rude to me, don't boss me around, don't treat me like your underling, or anything else, BECAUSE I WON'T PUT UP WITH IT.
And if ALL nurses took this standpoint, THIS WOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE. Unfortunately, it probably always will be...
Doctors rude, who would ever think that would happen. HA. I have been a nurse for 20+ years and have run across plenty of rude doctors. In my experience with these doctors, I have found that sometimes they don't even realize how they come across and sometimes they do. Usually, If I think they are being rude, I tell them. Don't let it get to the boiling point before you speak up. Take the doctor to a private area and tell him/her how you feel. If the rudeness borders on verbal abuse, this needs to be taken up with administration following the p and p of the agency you are working for. No one has to work under those conditions. Generally, I feel the same as Shortbus, I will treat you with respect, but I expect the same in return. If I don't get the respect I feel I deserve, I am going to speak up for myself and let you know. Recently, In the ER where I work, I had an incidence with a physician that no one likes to work with because of his attitude. He became angry because his x-rays weren't done as quickly as he felt they should have been, and threw a flashlight toward me, I really don't think it was at me, just in my direction and said, If someone knew what they were doing, my x-rays would already be here to view. My reply to him was, If you would have allowed us to order them in triage, as we are trained to do, instead of making us wait for you to see the patient 2 hours later, they would have been done, and by the way, your professionalism was showing when you threw that flashlight. I have not had any problems with him since then, and I now order what is appropriate in triage. Just hang in there.
Terry
I too have been in the industry for 20+ years, and when I run across a rude doctor, as happens waaaay too often. I say, " pardon me, but are you being intentionally rude?" That usually brings them up short and makes them think. The ones this doesn't work with, well let's just say they aren't worth the sweat off my brow and don't worry me.
We seem to have had an epidemic of rude doctors recently. One thing we have done recently that seems to be helping, is to back each other up. When a doctor goes off the deep end, we just stand behind the nurse being "verbally attacked" If we can offer evidence that he is wrong, or just being an idiot, we do. If not, we stand there together for moral support. They dont seem to say or do as much when all of us are looking at them like they are acting like an idiot.
One time one of our doctors was doing a circumcision and going off on one of the nurses. One of our "veteran" nurses walked in. She looked at the nurse and told her "He's going to need more suture" he looked puzzled and just said "I dont think so". She replied "Oh yes you will, to repair my ass after you take your foot out, since you have been trying to kick it all day" He was an angel the rest of the day. =)
I printed some of your responses and posted them in our nurses'lounge. I thought your answers were RIGHT ON and well worth sharing. Thank you all for the support!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with defnding yourself when somebody is rude to you, be it a doctor or any other colleague. Working in a Level I trauma center/teaching hospital, I have had my share of dealings with arrogant residents and rude doctors, and I never hesitate to put them back in their place. We as nurses shouldn't have to be responsible for correcting the actions of rude physicians, however, we shouldn't have to accept undignified treatment from them either! I am sure that you would all agree that we worked very hard to get where we are, and deserve respect.
Docs are different in the surgical suite than they are on the floor. I have worked with every surgeon who has hospital priveledges for the last 4 years. Now that I am a student doing clinical rotations at my same hospital, I see the same docs but in a different setting. But, they see me as ME, and can be in the middle of grilling a resident but stop to tell me good morning and give me a smile and a hug. I think it all depends on the setting you are in when you meet them, and it is all about respect. Show them you listen and learn and REMEMBER what they explain to you and that works wonders. Don't be intimidated by them and let them know you are confident in yourself and your job.
Maddie,
I have found that i don't aproach the individual when I[m still angry..but after i have a cooling off time. Then I can be objective and state my case.
this has worked well for me for many years now and I try very hard not to fly off the handle...then I look as bad as they do!
Ive been a nurse for 11 yrs and a CNA before that so have seen almost everything. As a new nurse i had a doc call my station and procede to yell and rant, I told him bluntly that I dont need to be treated like this and i didnt cause the prob and when you can speak nicely to me you can call back and hung up on him, he called back and apologized. I have had a doc we called doc satan call nurses out of a patients room to come to the desk and find something in a chart he was looking at, I have proceded to go back to my patient. There are many more instances, and a lot of times the managers or supervisors stand up for the doc and not the nurse,,,
Well, when they act like that towards me, I just snap back at them. They can't do a thing about it because they brought it on themselves. I don't believe in taking that crap from them. They do nothing but give orders all day long and never really ever touch the patient. All they do is write orders while we're the ones that actually nurse the patient back to health. These patients would not make it without God's blessing and God's use of us there to take care of them. Doctors need to stop being so arrogant, start listening to us and the patient, and stop being paid so much to do nothing.
rudeness is widespread!
rudeness is more common than good manners and civility... and the effects that result from it generally perpetuate and grow it!
much (not all!) of what occurs among people involves ego and selfishness. when individuals are focused on personal and individual pursuits, they are selfserving and lesser sensitive and responsive to others. ego is at work and folks are divided.
rudeness is a method folks employ to get what they want.
there are some great teachings (thousands of years old!)that well define efficient and effective methods that modify the effects of ego-driven behavior.
When I worked at the University of Florida, we had two types of doctors: rude prima donnas who thought of everyone else as their underling, and the second group were caring, sensitive individuals who were nice to everyone. This is all over the world, as I just spent last night at the University of Mississippi Medical School hospital visiting a friend whose child had his right arm ripped off in a freak accident. I met the most incredibly rude doctor. I had been directed via the information center to one section of the hospital, only to discover when I got there that our friend's child had been moved. I then went to the next dept., etc. I stopped a doctor (what was I thinking!) to ask him for directions because I seemed to be going around in circles. He was so rude to me and actually yelled at a CNA for trying to help me. I finally ran into a Dr. Phillips, an anesthesiologist, who offered to find the patient for me. He called around for about 5 minutes, found the child, gave me explicit directions how to get there, and even let me rest in his office. I'm just beginning my pre-reqs. for nursing school and he is the kind of doctor I hope I deal with more than the first doctor I met. But my husband, who is a doctor in a different hospital, says that most doctors are like the first one.
I work in a pediatric ER and a teaching hospital 75% of the doctors that come thru are only there by demand not choice. They have to do their rotation thru the ER and will never work with kids in their specialty. Because of this they depend highly on the nurses for help (cause they are scared to death of kids), thus they are very helpful. I had a few act like know it alls and regretted it, especially when the attending tells the nurse in front of the resident to take care of the patient, and not let the residents hurt them
Now I did work agency once and a doctor called and was real mean. He was a big butthead. So I hung up on him. He called me back and threatened me that he would be there in 5 minutes to rake care of me. I hung up again. He never did show up. The charge nurse came flying by and told me "never hang up on a doctor" I laughed and said I would do it again if he didn't treat me with professional courtesy. I don't play this the doctor is God attitude.
Good for you Kidrn911. As nurses, we do not have to take rude, obnoxious behavior. If as nurses we do not demand professional courtesy, some doctors will walk all over us.
Maddie;
Hi, how are you? Document, document and document more. Then notify your supervisor. Document that too. Everything: date, time, "Quotes." everything. This can easily be considered a hostile work environment. Violation of employment law. If it is not addressed, don't get mad, stay cool and don't talk. You have a nice lawsuit! I just went through this. We have a physician that openly called my nurses incompetent. Condecending, intimidating, constant putdowns, and always questioning with the goal to humiliate. She ended up the one with her tail tucked between her legs
Maddie;
Hi, how are you? Document, document and document more. Then notify your supervisor. Document that too. Everything: date, time, "Quotes." everything. This can easily be considered a hostile work environment. Violation of employment law. If it is not addressed, don't get mad, stay cool and don't talk. You have a nice lawsuit! I just went through this. We have a physician that openly called my nurses incompetent. Condecending, intimidating, constant putdowns, and always questioning with the goal to humiliate. She ended up the one with her tail tucked between her legs Cannon
I once worked for a big group of doctors there were 10 in the practice....Only one had the "God syndrome" one day he began yelling at me telling me what a disgrace to the healthcare field I was. Now mind you I was fresh out of school and just passed boards... I told him what an arrogant SOB he was and that without me he wouldn't know his butt from a whole in the wall .... and as I yelled at him I steadily was walking him into a corner.. Well from that day on I was his sole nurse and he even said he respected me for standing up to him... I won't take crap from anyone...I don't do in my private life and I sure as heck won't take it at work...Our jobs are demanding enough
If you want your job and your paycheck, put up with it, especially if you have kids
Document whatever orders he may give you. Report this
to your manager. If this is a persistent problem among
other nurses your charge or manager should be addressing this issue.
I agree, if the situation is consistently documented, eventually someone will get fed up and the prior documentation will make a major difference in making a case.
June 6, 1999: Emergency Department Nurse Verbally Abused, Physician History Well Documented
Official tolerance for verbal abuse and sexual harassment is approaching zero. It is clear that both are still prevalent in healthcare settings today. Enforcing and reporting instances of abuse are critical to an end being put to the situation. In this case, a physician had a "history" of verbal abuse in the facility involved. It was the documentation of previous events that made formal action and administration of a suspension feasible.
Gordon v. Lewiston Hospital, 714 A.2d 539 – PA (1998) http://www.nursefriendly.com/nursing/clinical.cases/060699.htm
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It is so about RESPECT,never let anyone treat you less than human,,,when you demand respect from Doctors, Patients,and co-workers,believe me you will get it.As mild mannered as I am,there is nothing that gets me going more than a person, no matter who they are, disrespecting another..Do Not Allow It...Face it and deal with right then and there and Document, Document, Document.
[ QUOTE ] takmilele said:
It is so about RESPECT,never let anyone treat you less than human,,,when you demand respect from Doctors, Patients,and co-workers,believe me you will get it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, I've hung up on/walked away from my share of doctors who were being rude/obnoxious.
An effective tactic is to lure them into the nurses station and then loudly ask "who the hell do you think you're talking to like that."
It embarrasses the hell out of them and brings the issue to everyone's attention. Repeated complaints to administration on verbal abuse do eventually get acted on.
One despicable tactic I especially despise is when a doctor will follow you into a med room, patients room, etc to corner you.
The medics response
With over 17 years of experience in emergency situations I am used to everyone being snappy. I'll give you once maybe even twice considering the situation. Once bitten twice shy then they see a side that blows their mind. My coworkers describe me as easy going mild mannered until I get on an Oh S&*#* scene. I still don't scream or throw things I am just very direct and have never had any complaints against me except by doctors that I have told to bug off. Last year we had a doctor throw a bag of NS at me. I picked it up and threw it back and hit him in the head. Probably not the professional response but it felt good. I have said for years that being a doctor does not take intelligence just persistancy. I have a few doctors that I have a great respect for but many that will ask me for dosages on CCU transports. I think many nurses and paramedics are often more intelligent we just didn't have the money or the time for school. Lastly my best response is to not do anything without calling the doctor. When he says why are you calling me for an IV. I say I am just a lowly paramedic needing orders from the great one. That usually only takes about a shift to change their view of you.
Medivac
88888888 wrote:If you want your job and your paycheck, put up with it, especially if you have kids
Document whatever orders he may give you. Report this
to your manager. If this is a persistent problem among
other nurses your charge or manager should be addressing this issue.
I cant agree for two reasons.. First of all, in the doctors mind (my opinion based on the fact they are rude to professionals in the first place) is that they will see this "backdoor attack" as whiny and "tattle-tailie"... I also think it will garner no respect.. Secondly, every place I have worked has coddled doctors, expecially the ones in short supply. Management cant even get them to chart legibly, do their part on the computer charting, etc..
I will usually give them a break once or twice, everyone has bad days and can be grumpy. Next it will be a bewildered stare and a "are you purposely being rude, if you are, I dont appreciate it?".... If that doesnt work, I will usually say something like "When you can treat me like a fellow medical professional, I will be more than happy to talk to you" and walk off. I have even been known to ask them "have you always been an arse hole, or was it a pre-requisite class in Med school"... Lastly, if that doesnt work, I will have a little "side chat" with them as I have previously described.. That has always worked, many times the less vigorous approaches work too..
I remember one surgeon that was always so rude he would bring nurses to tears whenever he was called in.. One night when I was supervising, he was berating an LPN for having the Charge RN call him over her concern of a drain not working, and increasing abd pain (jp drain)...
When I got involved, and I asked him what the problem was, his reply was "Do you know how much hell I catch from the wife when we get woke up at 3am by these stupid nurses?"
I replied to him "First off, these are not stupid nurses, and if they werent here, you would have to be as they are your patients. Secondly, the next time your wife complains about you getting called in, ask her how attached she is to her Benz and if she would like to give it up along with the vacation home, etc..."
His face turned red as a beet, and several days later a couple nurses came up to me and said "What the heck did you say to Dr. *****?, he has been so polite lately it's almost scary"...
Christof....I like that comeback about the Benz. I'd have loved to pop a comment like that to the one A. H. I've dealt with (he was on his 2nd wife), but the DON (female) had her mouth to his a$$, and only SHE could 'talk' to him, for the most part. Anyhow...let's get back on track. True, some doctors *do* have an attitude problem. Whether that is their 'normal' mode or not....or they are trying to see how much of a 'spine' we nurses have....it is NOT a good thing when it keeps happening. Cougarnurse
Great topic- JCAHO in 2009 will be releasing their Zero Tolerance document regarding physician abuse of staff. Verbal, physical, it don't matter, if it is abusive it will not be tolerated by JACHO, and hospital administration is going to have deal with it. I am an OR Supervisor and we have a very simple way to deal with Surgeons who go off. 1. The OR staff will call me and tell me whats happening. 2. I go into the OR and see for myself, listen and make our standard management statement of "We can talk about this after your case is done in my office Doctor." 3. At this point they either stop their ranting or they get even more upset. 4. If they get more upset we call the VP of Nursing and Medical Staff. 5. After the case is over the entire staff, techs, nurses and anesthesia all are requested to fill out incident forms which are sent to the Medical Staff office. 6. They call the MD and talk to them, in the case of multiple offenders they sometimes end up going to anger management classes and it does not happen again. Even MDs who bring the hospital "lot of profitiable cases" are not exempt,
and this system has worked very well. No one should be put in a situation where they are verbally abused, but respect is a two way street. If you get into a verbal arguement and escalate it by throwing something, yelling back, etc. your position is very weak. If you maintain a calm demeanor, state that their behavior is not acceptable and will be documented, you would be surprised how many of these arguements just end.
Always document, i don't understand why nurses are so reluctant to document. It provides a clear picture of a habit of abusive behavior, that gives Medical Staff a documented trail to discuss with the surgeon. You might feel that by not reporting an abusive MD you are as one of the nurses put it, "keeping the peace" but all you are doing is telling the MDs that abusive behavior is OK. Don't fall into this trap.
I speak from experience, recently. A surgeon accused me of being incompetent because the OR team did not have a video monitor in the right place, and he ranted and rave. I called the VP Nursing and she had a heart to heart with him that day.
He would not talk to me for a few days, and now treats me like his best buddy. I'm sure my picture is in his garage, stuck on
his dart board, but as long as he is civil in the OR, who cares.
I work in the OR and rude does not explain it. Some of these surgeons attitudes and behaviors are inappropriate. The sad thing is that some of the CRNA's, RN's and scrub techs behave similar. I have only been in this area for about a year and a half and I have every intention on leaving. It is not the work that has me wanting to leave this area it is the people. It's like a good rock concert "you like the music but not the crowd"!! I can understand why some choose this area. The patients and family members would not stand for their behaviors. I get to hear this all day at work "thats just the way he/she is". Well Im sorry if thats the way they are I surely dont want them taking care of my family! When I care for patients and families I think of how I would want my family treated and it comes very easy to me to have patience, sympathy and empathy.
My response to rude doc are: " Doc do you know the difference between God and Doctors? God knows he's not a doctor." This usually stops them in their tracts. Not always but they have come in with more respect the next time.
I remember once, many years ago, when the way a doctor humiliated me actually brought me to tears, but I didn't have the nerve to talk back. I think you have every right to stand up for your dignity. Doctors are only people, too, and if they didn't ask "stupid" questions when they were learning their trade they probably never would have received their degree.
Reneec
The doctor I work with treats me horribly. I just finished school, and I did my training at his office. Im a fairly timid person, and I dont like to speak much, but I do when I have to of course, but Im mostly the mouse in the office. Today the doctor yelled at me and told me he doesnt know how they let me out of school and I should be ashamed of myself. Why? Because I told him about pain a patient was experiencing in her back. He asked was this pain new, and I told him no. He didnt give me a chance to say anything to him about what the patient expressed to me about her condition. Its always like this. It hurt me so much I cried. I dont know how to deal with this man when he yells at me this way. I nearly quit and walked out, and this is my first year out of college, I just graduated last week. March 27th to be exact. Someone please help me. I love my job and I love what I do, but I just don't know how to deal with someone who speaks to me as if Im nothing. I havent been treated so badly by someone in a work place like this. BTW I work for a Chiropractor but he is also an MD, I do my nursing and physical therapy here, someone please help me with this.
Wo87pooh wrote:The doctor I work with treats me horribly. I just finished school, and I did my training at his office. Im a fairly timid person, and I dont like to speak much, but I do when I have to of course, but Im mostly the mouse in the office. Today the doctor yelled at me and told me he doesnt know how they let me out of school and I should be ashamed of myself. Why? Because I told him about pain a patient was experiencing in her back. He asked was this pain new, and I told him no. He didnt give me a chance to say anything to him about what the patient expressed to me about her condition. Its always like this. It hurt me so much I cried. I dont know how to deal with this man when he yells at me this way. I nearly quit and walked out, and this is my first year out of college, I just graduated last week. March 27th to be exact. Someone please help me. I love my job and I love what I do, but I just don't know how to deal with someone who speaks to me as if Im nothing. I havent been treated so badly by someone in a work place like this. BTW I work for a Chiropractor but he is also an MD, I do my nursing and physical therapy here, someone please help me with this.
No one deserves to be treated badly - Under normal conditions I would tell you to get another job - but the economy being what it is - Even experience nurses are having a hard time finding job.
Being as you are nonconfrontational makes it harder for you - but you have to learn to stand up for yourself as there is no shortage of rude nasty doctors and even some nurses who will give you a hard time every heard the expressions "Nurses eat their young"? You would do best to keep emotion out of it and simply confront his statements with truth. In other words if he calls you stupid then say something like - I graduated from nursing school so I know I'm not stupid - and please don't talk to me that way.
Often people who are rude don't even realize how rude they are until they are confronted.
When I was working as a CNA while in nursing school I had a doctor yell at me in the hallway because I helped a patient of his to the bathroom. The patient was ambulatory and there was no orders for patient not to ambulate.
The doctor was acutally curing at me in the hallway. I stood straight up and said he had no right to speak to me that way. He wrote a letter to my nuring school telling them I was insubordinate and should be expelled from the program. Long story short I ended taking him to the Hospital Ethics board then he had to apologize to me. You got to stand up for yourself girl.
In varying degrees, we see this behavior somewhat regularly in medicine so you will get practice in dealing with it. Fortunately, the generation of handmaiden demanding doctors is retiring but sadly, there will never be an end to arrogance. If this has never happened before, maybe he was having a bad day and unloaded on you but verbally assaulting someone is inexcusable, regardless. This man is likely arrogant and self absorbed and has no idea his behavior is unacceptable. Nobody checks him on it therefore he doesn't change. This is important, each time he gets away with verbal bullying it's an affirmation of the behavior. "I get away with it so, it must be okay to do."
Next time, mid tirade, firmly interrupt him. "Excuse me. Doctor, I will not have you speak to me this way. Please change your tone and I will listen to what you have to say." Unless he's a real idiot, he will be taken back, apologize, make some lame excuse and change his tone. More importantly, you will have the benefit of gaining his respect for standing up to him. When he acts up again AND he will, all you will have to do is make eye contact (important) and give him a stern look, maybe put a hand up, like "STOP", but more than likely you won't have to fully correct him again. In the unlikely event that he continues his rant, say, "I don't have to take this." Turn and walk away. He will stop then because your leaving took control and ended the attack.
If communication cannot be civil, leave this job because your self esteem shouldn't suffer like that. Don't worry, you will find another place to work.
I work in Trauma ER and have so for a very long time.
We had a trauma come in, that was only moderately challenging. But we have this one young trauma doc, Doesnt even look as if he is old enough to shave. But he got uppity and rude and made 2 of the young nurse cry with his remarks. He didnt affect me of course.
I looked at him, and told him what a good job he had done. Then I said, "You are almost good enough to be on Grey's Anatomy" Then everyone just laughed at him. He started to say something back to me, but I just stood up tall and looked down on him and smiled evilly.
I was Corpsman in Nam, and have been an RN forever it seems. Rude doctors are not a problem to handle.
<---- this is what I think about rude doctors... PUCKER UP DOC! 
