GRRR - The Gender Bias Continues

[Jelston]

StacyL,

I seriously hope that other "professional" female nurses do not share your short-sighted and critically incorrect points. This has nothing to do with "politically correct" views. Men are not taking nursing positions away from women any more than women are taking IT and computer positions away from men (or in other professions such as Law Enforcement, military, etc.) It is also disturbing that you feel that just because bias towards women in the workplace had existed historically in the past, that it should justify continuing into the future towards men to "make them pay" or "get them back". Any profession should be open to BOTH men and women. That is the trend that society is trying to move towards. Your suggestion only takes us in reverse and causes unneeded animosity in the job market. To say that men are incapable of being nurturers leads me to believe that not only have you never been exposed to men who love their families, their children, and their wives, but perhaps you had a bad experience as a child yourself with your own father. But even if that is true, you cannot make such a broad generalization about all men. I had a terrible mother who knew absolutely nothing about compassion, caring, or even love. Yet, I do not think that all women are incapable of those abilities. You should also check statistics and facts before you make untrue statements about "deadbeat" dads and sexual offenders. Believe me, there are just as many "deadbeat mothers" out there too. You might have heard about some of them who leave their children in garbage cans, lock them in cars and then roll the cars into lakes and rivers, or throw their children off bridges. How many millions of women across the nation leave their children uncared for while they go out to prostitute and feed crack habits? (Just watch a few episodes of COPS) And finally, the sexual offender offense is not closed to women either. Almost every month, the news reports of female teachers who are having sex and even babies with minor-aged boys. However, since female sex offenders are considered differently in our society, they are often not reported as much as male sex offenders (who often are mis-reported by female "victims" really seeking some attention), so there is most lilely a LOT more female sexual assults that go unreported and unacknowledged each year across the country. The point I am making is that your views are very biased and not grounded in fact. There are good men and there are good women. Unfortunately, there are many BAD women just as there are many bad men too. But this has nothing to do with the gender qualifications of a medical position, such as nursing. A nurse's merits should be based on the academic and professional history of that particular person's career, NOT on whether the nurse is male or female. Finally, your "old school" point of view isn't so old afterall. It has only been in the last century that nursing has been a "female dominated" career. Historically, in other countries and in other civilizations, it was either men or both men and women. The trend today to open up nursing to both men and women is not new, it is merely a return to an "older school" of thought that existed previously. You're right about one thing, you are entittled to your own opinion and you can continue to be convicted to it. But opinions can be wrong too. Especially when they are not grounded in fact. A wise person knows that when faced with true factual evidence, a sincere openess to consider and even change their opinion is always an option. I hope that you will make such a choice.

[vincent]

StacyL,

I seriously hope that other "professional" female nurses do not share your short-sighted and critically incorrect points. This has nothing to do with "politically correct" views. Men are not taking nursing positions away from women any more than women are taking IT and computer positions away from men (or in other professions such as Law Enforcement, military, etc.) It is also disturbing that you feel that just because bias towards women in the workplace had existed historically in the past, that it should justify continuing into the future towards men to "make them pay" or "get them back". Any profession should be open to BOTH men and women. That is the trend that society is trying to move towards. Your suggestion only takes us in reverse and causes unneeded animosity in the job market. To say that men are incapable of being nurturers leads me to believe that not only have you never been exposed to men who love their families, their children, and their wives, but perhaps you had a bad experience as a child yourself with your own father. But even if that is true, you cannot make such a broad generalization about all men. I had a terrible mother who knew absolutely nothing about compassion, caring, or even love. Yet, I do not think that all women are incapable of those abilities. You should also check statistics and facts before you make untrue statements about "deadbeat" dads and sexual offenders. Believe me, there are just as many "deadbeat mothers" out there too. You might have heard about some of them who leave their children in garbage cans, lock them in cars and then roll the cars into lakes and rivers, or throw their children off bridges. How many millions of women across the nation leave their children uncared for while they go out to prostitute and feed crack habits? (Just watch a few episodes of COPS) And finally, the sexual offender offense is not closed to women either. Almost every month, the news reports of female teachers who are having sex and even babies with minor-aged boys. However, since female sex offenders are considered differently in our society, they are often not reported as much as male sex offenders (who often are mis-reported by female "victims" really seeking some attention), so there is most lilely a LOT more female sexual assults that go unreported and unacknowledged each year across the country. The point I am making is that your views are very biased and not grounded in fact. There are good men and there are good women. Unfortunately, there are many BAD women just as there are many bad men too. But this has nothing to do with the gender qualifications of a medical position, such as nursing. A nurse's merits should be based on the academic and professional history of that particular person's career, NOT on whether the nurse is male or female. Finally, your "old school" point of view isn't so old afterall. It has only been in the last century that nursing has been a "female dominated" career. Historically, in other countries and in other civilizations, it was either men or both men and women. The trend today to open up nursing to both men and women is not new, it is merely a return to an "older school" of thought that existed previously. You're right about one thing, you are entittled to your own opinion and you can continue to be convicted to it. But opinions can be wrong too. Especially when they are not grounded in fact. A wise person knows that when faced with true factual evidence, a sincere openess to consider and even change their opinion is always an option. I hope that you will make such a choice.

Well said! I've talked to many female nurses about potentially becoming a nurse and they are very welcoming. I hope this bias toward male nurses will not last and hopefully more males will consider a career in nursing as it is a very noble a rewarding career. My two cents.

- Vincent

[Jadranko]

I started nursing school in 1998, went right into CVICU/ICU nursing and we are the minority as far as head counts, males seen more attracted to the high tech of high acuity nursing. In the years of 1994 to 2005 I've been called a male nurse less than I've been called a doctor. I take no offense to either.I believe that the politics , drama, and backbiting that a male will encounter can be avoided by nurses that happen to be males go into registry nursing as soon as their experience level allows. This way you can search out and experience for yourself the best fit, at a premium wage. My sister has been a nurse for 25years, and they spoke of the nursing shortage even then. And now I hear a new shortage of 800,000 nurses. There will always be a shortage of nurses in that respect. I no longer encourage males or females to go into this profession,true it's been very satisfying knowing you have made a positive difference, but the hoops you are going to have to jump through now and in the future grow. Life is too short.

[stacyL]

I expected as much, surprised not more defensive comments. This is a real problem...not allowing a person to have THEIR OWN OPINIONS AND FEELINGS. You want to change or hope I change or hope others dont share my thoughts/feelings.That is shortsided/narrow view and idealistic I might add. YOU want to stifle differing opinions and THAT is dangerous. Everyone is different as is their opinions. ACCEPT THAT! You will not be accepted by everyone, perhaps maybe to your face....

Comments on what you think are my personal experiences...you sure ARE fishing/phishing. It is simply my feelings and thoughts. Why does it bother you so? Get thick skin, do what you do, do it well and maybe, just maybe then and only then will you change people's hearts for the better. Not by the blah, blah, blah, of trying to prove a point. Do you really think I care about your comments? I really dont. Dont bore me with words, do more with positive actions. Live and learn...

[Cudgel]

I have been a nurse for twelve years and have not encountered any real bias against men in nursing. I had one instructor in school who didn’t like the male students, but she had been married five times and after having been a five time loser she just didn’t like men. It didn’t seem to have anything to do with nursing; she was just a loser as a person and had decided to blame all men for her own problems.

As a nurse I have never really encountered any problems based on gender. I have been one of a few men in some jobs and have ( like now) been the only man on a particular unit. It has never been an issue, however. Most places just need nurses, and so long as you do good work, nobody cares what you look like. I do, occasionally, encounter someone who says “male nurse” but I just ignore it; these are most often the same people who say “woman doctor” and refer to non caucasians being “colored”. They have chosen for their own reasons to prejudge people as groups, and they will ultimately have to deal with the moral implications of their prejudices.

It is not possible to completely avoid ignorant people in any profession. We are fortunate, as nurses, that we work in a profession where simply doing our job can provide such great satisfaction and the opinions of a few ignorant people carries little weight.

[cnaandy]

I work as a CNA and I recently started nursing school I find it insulting that I thought of as the guy that dose the heavy lifting and thought of as stupid or inferior to my female coworker and fellow students I work as hard as them I pay the same tution as the girls in my classes I deserve to be treated the same any ideas on howto handle profs that are biased against males I have been told document everything and raise **** when nessary any other advise. can be reached at andynine@shol.com

[veritas]

I seriously hope that other "professional" female nurses do not share your short-sighted and critically incorrect points.

I'm a female nurse, too, and I am embarrassed and shamed by the ignorance and intolerance shown by a female posting to this forum. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinions, no matter how lame they may be -- but, thank goodness, this person's prejudiced point of view doesn't infect all of nursing. Gentlemen, I congratulate you all on being pioneers in this field among this generation, and I encourage you to go as far as you can in your careers. Nursing needs you!

V

[Ricu]

Hi everyone,

The gender bias issue is one that troubles me too. I rarely experience difficulty on the job but when I do, it's usually the patient with the concern for my gender. Ironically, it's usually the 60+ year old male who objects to having a male nurse. For the most part, both men and women whom I've cared for have commented on how pleased they were with the amount of compassion and the quality of care given to them by me, a male nurse. Some have appeared surprised by the caring that a man can show. I work in a critical care unit and you all know how it can be in there for both patients and family members. Regarding the profession of nursing and how it promotes gender bias, I wholeheartedly agree that two of the largest factors are failing to use gender neutral language in it's writings and failing to feature enough men in photographs depicting nurses at work. Those things need to change. For what it's worth, I'm in the camp of wanting a different title. Healthcare Technologist or something like that suits me better. Sorry, I can't shake the aversion to the term even after almost 10 years. I share the strong objection to the absence of things that would interest men in nursing unifrom and equipment catalogs too. Stacey, I will close with a few words to you. You have made a number of decidedly anti-male statements on a message board devoted to men and seem offended that they would object. You say that you don't care what anyone reading your posting thinks but you made your opinion public by posting it. Obviously you intended for others to read it which makes me think you do care especially, since you replied to the objections. Exactly what was your expectation? Did you think that the men here would support your thoughts? You do indeed have a right to your opinion but can't seriously expect anyone here to appreciate it. Why don't you create a thread entitled malebashing and post your thoughts there.

[jalabee]

I have to have some sympathy for experienced nurses like Stacy who are skeptical of new nurses and want them to prove their clinical abilities. It's understandable that they would feel uncomfortable for a time before welcoming an untested person to their team. However, there's a point after which people who are subjected to too much scrutiny are basically locked out. People - men and women who are new to a team - need and are entitled to some encouragement.

Combine this with the fact that a certain percentage of women nurses resent men nurses, men nurses have their issues about women, the male docs don't respect women - there's a lot of gender hatred that has to be negotiated on the floor. Is this something which should be accepted or as you suggest encouraged as the starting point?

If I'm working on the floor with you - and I'm a beginner who is a newbie - I want to partner with you and when the day comes that my skills are up there back you up as much as I can. Just because you are my colleague on the floor. That's my desire as a newcomer in the field. Do you really want to put me off those feeling just because I am a man?

By the way, my wife is successful in an area which is traditionally a man's field - you can either say 'well, he's compensating for this,' or 'he understands discrimination - he's seen the job perks his wife has missed out simply because she doesn't have an XY chromosome configuration.' I assure the latter is closer to the truth and the more constructive tack to take.

If another man expressed what you said Stacy and put those words into action in a work environment, I'd report him to HR and make every attempt to have him fired - and I'd do the same to you in a second. My experience on the floor though is that there is a conspiracy of silence and women sometimes get away with subtle forms of harassment: just intentionally misinterpret everything the male nurse says, for example. Their justification is that the person can get another job very quickly, which isn't always true.

[Ricu]

I have to have some sympathy for experienced nurses like Stacy who are skeptical of new nurses and want them to prove their clinical abilities. It's understandable that they would feel uncomfortable for a time before welcoming an untested person to their team. However, there's a point after which people who are subjected to too much scrutiny are basically locked out. People - men and women who are new to a team - need and are entitled to some encouragement.

Combine this with the fact that a certain percentage of women nurses resent men nurses, men nurses have their issues about women, the male docs don't respect women - there's a lot of gender hatred that has to be negotiated on the floor. Is this something which should be accepted or as you suggest encouraged as the starting point?

If I'm working on the floor with you - and I'm a beginner who is a newbie - I want to partner with you and when the day comes that my skills are up there back you up as much as I can. Just because you are my colleague on the floor. That's my desire as a newcomer in the field. Do you really want to put me off those feeling just because I am a man?

By the way, my wife is successful in an area which is traditionally a man's field - you can either say 'well, he's compensating for this,' or 'he understands discrimination - he's seen the job perks his wife has missed out simply because she doesn't have an XY chromosome configuration.' I assure the latter is closer to the truth and the more constructive tack to take.

If another man expressed what you said Stacy and put those words into action in a work environment, I'd report him to HR and make every attempt to have him fired - and I'd do the same to you in a second. My experience on the floor though is that there is a conspiracy of silence and women sometimes get away with subtle forms of harassment: just intentionally misinterpret everything the male nurse says, for example. Their justification is that the person can get another job very quickly, which isn't always true.

Hi Jalabee,

You and I seem to have a few things in common, both of us are in nursing and both of our wives work in traditional male roles. I think we also agree with how to orient new nurses and help them to develop positive relationships with their coworkers. Your comments about Stacey's actions are right on- report them to HR and seek disciplinary action. I can't see how such comments wouldn't get a person fired. What I think we might view differently is the female viewpoint toward us in the nursing field. I really don't see this silent conspiracy against or worse, outright hatred of men. I do believe it occurs however, maybe in pockets, but I don't see this as a generalized attitude.


Take care and good luck,

Ricu