degree vs diploma?

can somebody help me to know that, when RNABC is going to change rule among diploma vs degree?I mean to say, when it will be in effect?

Didn't know this was an issue as i thought all the diploma schools were closed now

Same here.. are there still any around?

I think there are a few diploma schools around. I got my ADN first and started working (needed the money) but continuted with school till I got my BSN. It didn't change my pay at all as still a staff nurse. I could make a little more if I did the hospital clinical ladder but it's a pain in the but to do the ladder at our hospital and you only get a couple of points based on your education. I'm going to get my certification in April but my pay will be the same. However I think I'll be more marketable when I move on. The BSN did help when I changed from pediatrics to home health (in the same hospital)When I changed back to L&D it wasn't even mentioned. We have managers at my hospital that are ADN.

I have only and ADN. But, I am very proud of it. I graduated with honors. I went through nursing school at age 37 while working a full time job, running a home and raising 2 children. I hate when these BSN nurses act like they are so much better than ADN's, We passed the same state board exam and in alot of the situations, ADN's often have just as many clinical days at the hospital during school as do the BSN programs. I don't know of any diploma programs around here anymore, but I have worked along side many diploma nurses who were great. The main thing to me is that an RN is an RN and we all have to stick together.

Gayla

Around here the ADN students actually get more clinical days in the hospital. The BSN is mostly paperwork where they want to prepare you for office jobs. I was going to get my MSN but it does little good unless you want management which I don't want. I just like learning in general (ok parents are 2 teachers). There are a few states that require BSN why I don't know. You're right about the BSN students acting better. We have students that work in our unit from 3 different schools. The one that's from a BSN only program acts better then the other girls but doesn't have a clue as to whats going on.

Please don't pigeon hole BSN nurses. In many areas of the country we work right beside you and you don't even know we have a BSN.. A nurse is not her degree.. She is how she/he uses that degree..

Yes, I have my BSN. It was a quicker route for me..Did I do it to get into management..NO F****ing way..And I don't..I got my BSN because I was old and didn't want to go back again. Heck I wanted to stay an LPN but I saw the writing on the wall..Yes, sometimes you do have to play the game..But play their game to win...

I am getting down..

WR,,, three commas for Becca

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't pigeon hole BSN nurses.

I hope you don't think I was pigeon holing you cause I am a BSN nurse too. I was just saying (at least where I work) the BSN (or any additional education) doesn't help a bit as far as pay, shift anything unless you are in management. You can get a couple of extra points on a clinical ladder (which they make a pain in the butt so nobody does it either). But the nursing schools here including the 2 I went to and the other 2 that come to clinicals at our hospital the ADN nurses are better prepared for clinicals. The ADN schools do all day clinical and more weeks of it. The BSN schools do 1/2 days so they don't see as much. Maybe I am being prejudiced but the BSN student that works on our unit doesn't do much (she probably wouldn't if she worked at McD's either) but you have to tell her everything, it's time to do vitals etc. If we have a c-section you tell her she can watch she says she already saw one...well once isn't enough. Tell her time to change a dressing she has already seen that too.
I appreciate any nurse RN or LPN or NA that pulls their weight and works. That working has nothing to do with education it's called pulling your weight.

Most ADN programs don't have a preceptorship. I did one that required that I work one on one with another RN for 140 hours in that semester. And my program instituited a 3 semester internship program that was similar. I believe the students had to do 80 hours each semester one on one with an RN. Now that is very good IMHO. Both programs gave credit ..The one semester one was NOT optional the other is. But you still get credits for it..Better IMHO than ceramics.. I know an ADN nurse that took that for an elective..LOLLL

We will always have lazy nurses no matter where or how they are educated.

WR,,, three commas for Becca

I am a new Rn with a BSN, but I don't feel as if I am any better than any other nurse. I went to college straight out of high school and I was only 17 years old. The reason I went for a BSN was because I felt like I had the time. I would only be 20 years old when I completed the program. Unfortunately It took me alittle longer than planned. I recently talked to a woman who was trying to decide between a associate degee program and a BSN program. I actually recommended our local ADN program for the simple reason I feel as if I was jipped on the clinical experience I received I waS always tied up with the extra paper work. I believe it is true,the ADN programs offer quite a bit more clinical experience and I feel this is a shame for those of us who desire the degree but don't get as much out of it. As for the nurses with there associates degree you guys are great, I hope soon to have the skill that you have received.

I originally went to a diploma program...about 27 years ago!
@ that time they were saying that they were thinking of making BSN and AD nurses "professional" whereas the diploma grads would be...I think they said nonprofessinal. However, they were going to "grandfather" the diploma grads who had "X" amount of experience into the professional level. Nothing ever came of this.

Are there diploma programs out there? The hospitals I know of that have programs are through a college so they are AD or BSN programs.

I noticed this is a pretty old post and my reply may not even be seen, but here goes.
A little over 30 years ago, when I was in LPN school, there was talk of creating the Professional Nurse and the Technical nurse.
The PN would be the diploma and BSN nurses and the TN would be the AD and LPN nurses.
Quite a bit different from what your area was talking about.

I'm looking for some advice from an actual nurses instead of school counselors.

I am currently in school with the hopes (and dreams) of being an RN. I'm not sure which direction will help me in the long run. I'm attending a community college in San Diego (still taking pre-recs) and I need to decided if I'm going to take the RN program they offer here or transfer to a four year college. The structure of my classes depends on this decision. This seemed like a good place to go with this type of question. Thank you!

It's a question of your time and money which to go for.

A BSN will take longer, cost more, and won't necessarily get you paid more as a starting nurse. Hospitals, Nursing Homes and other facilities typically will not pay you more than a diploma or Associates Degree nurse.

It will open up other career options not available to nondegreed nurses.

It is historically, more difficult to go back to school after you are working in the field.

Keeping that in mind, I'd say go as far as you can now, complete your education then enter the field.

If money is an issue and you want to start working as soon as possible, I'd go for the diploma program and think about going back at a later date.

Hope that helps,

Andrew Lopez, RN
http://www.4nursing.com

Hi,

I am a diploma graduate nurse. I've been a nurse for six years and feel that I made the right decision to do the diploma program. The diploma program is very hands on and your clinical experiences correlate with the theory you learn in class. I know a lot of nurses who did the four year program who's clinical experience was limited. Does that make me a better nurse no....that can only be based individually, but I feel I was more comfortable and confident to work in the clninical setting.....don't go for additional education? ....no I'm not saying that, if you see yourself in a managerial/supervisory role you need to have at least a BSN if not a MSN. I plan to go back to school soon, but right now I'm enjoying learning nursing. I've done telemetry, vents, surgical icu, home care, and even wellness clinics. I would love to be well rounded when I become someone's manager with experience.....not just with some letters behind my name with no clue!

I agree, my program was an AAS Diploma program and for me it was the right choice. I wanted to go into nursing, already had a degree and didn't want to spend the time/money needed to get a BSN.

I've got no regrets, I got into the field quickly and started working/earning. Could I go back, sure. Will I? We'll have to see.

If I do go back, it sure won't be for the extra money I'll make having a BSN or MSN.

In Nursing Schools, a new graduate will make as much, or more than their Nursing instructors their first year out of school.

Makes you wonder why a MSN is required for most teaching spots. You'd think they were making a lot more than their students, it just isn't the case.

It's a shame, I think teachers should get paid more.

Andrew Lopez, RN
http://www.4nursing.com

I am a Diploma Nursing Grad. I have since gone on to obtain my BS as well as a second degree in education. I chose to pursue a diploma program because I felt that it provided the best clinical education and would best prepare me for patient care. Although I have no regrets in that respect, I do believe that it is time for all nurses to unite for the benefit of our profession and acknowledge that it is time to develop a new model for nursing education. We need to have a minimum of a BS degree to legitimize our profession. We also know the vast body of knowledge that must be mastered from a clinical perspective to be truly competent.Acknowledge the facts, BSN programs lack nursing practice and Diploma and ADN programs lack liberal arts. We need a program that addresses the deficiencies in all programs. We need to go the route of Physical Therapy, and Pharmacy and make Registered Nursing a 5 or 6 year Masters program.

In the last year of my BSN program I did 3-12 hour clinical rotations each week in acute care (cardiac critical care). I spent 8 hours each week working in a free clinic (public health nursing), I spent 8 hours each week speaking with public officials, gathering and analyzing data, participating in research, and coordinating nursing events. The rest of my week was spent in class, writing reports and papers, preparing presentations, and studying for my NCLEX. When I had time, I was a single mother to four children. When deciding your path in life, do not seek out advice from those who will never reach beyond that which is easy or immediately available to them. The only people I see bashing BSN programs are those who could never make it through a BSN program. My university took 48 students, out of 1,000 applicants. My graduating class had a 100% pass rate on the NCLEX, and no physician has ever mistaken me for an ADN. After reading some of these posts, I am so proud that I chose an education over technical training.

BSN2MSN wrote:In the last year of my BSN program I did 3-12 hour clinical rotations each week in acute care (cardiac critical care). I spent 8 hours each week working in a free clinic (public health nursing), I spent 8 hours each week speaking with public officials, gathering and analyzing data, participating in research, and coordinating nursing events. The rest of my week was spent in class, writing reports and papers, preparing presentations, and studying for my NCLEX. When I had time, I was a single mother to four children. When deciding your path in life, do not seek out advice from those who will never reach beyond that which is easy or immediately available to them. The only people I see bashing BSN programs are those who could never make it through a BSN program. My university took 48 students, out of 1,000 applicants. My graduating class had a 100% pass rate on the NCLEX, and no physician has ever mistaken me for an ADN. After reading some of these posts, I am so proud that I chose an education over technical training.

:whatever:






























BTW, I have an AAS in Surgical Technology, AAS in Nursing [ADN], as well as BSN. However, your attitude towards ADNs I don't appreciate at all. My wife is a darn good ADN!!!

pbbh wrote:I am a Diploma Nursing Grad. I have since gone on to obtain my BS as well as a second degree in education. I chose to pursue a diploma program because I felt that it provided the best clinical education and would best prepare me for patient care. Although I have no regrets in that respect, I do believe that it is time for all nurses to unite for the benefit of our profession and acknowledge that it is time to develop a new model for nursing education. We need to have a minimum of a BS degree to legitimize our profession. We also know the vast body of knowledge that must be mastered from a clinical perspective to be truly competent.Acknowledge the facts, BSN programs lack nursing practice and Diploma and ADN programs lack liberal arts. We need a program that addresses the deficiencies in all programs. We need to go the route of Physical Therapy, and Pharmacy and make Registered Nursing a 5 or 6 year Masters program.

I agree with you. The way it is now, it doesn't really matter whether you get a BSN or ADN/Diploma. All are lacking in one area or another. I think making it a 5 or 6 year master's program would allow for improvement in all areas. I agree it would legitimize our profession. We would get more respect from physicians and other healthcare practitioners. Of course, I must confess, I am sort of crazy and definitely plan to get my doctorate in nursing as soon as finances allow.

My graduating class had a 100% pass rate on the NCLEX, and no physician has ever mistaken me for an ADN. After reading some of these posts, I am so proud that I chose an education over technical training.[/QUOTE]

I have a BSN also (after going through an ADN program first with 3 kids ages 1-3 at the time and working full time) I don't think any doctor ever mistook me for an ADN grad or took me for a BSN grad because I don't think they care. My ADN class had 100% pass rate and the ADN program where I've taught clinicals has had 100% pass rate also. Do you work with only BSN grads and do the ADN grads you work with know you don't think they are as good? I for one learned more in my ADN clinicals then my BSN ones (did the same things you say you did I thought it was busy work) but learned more on the job.

In the last year of my BSN program I did 3-12 hour clinical rotations each week in acute care (cardiac critical care). I spent 8 hours each week working in a free clinic (public health nursing), I spent 8 hours each week speaking with public officials, gathering and analyzing data, participating in research, and coordinating nursing events. The rest of my week was spent in class, writing reports and papers, preparing presentations, and studying for my NCLEX. When I had time, I was a single mother to four children. When deciding your path in life, do not seek out advice from those who will never reach beyond that which is easy or immediately available to them. The only people I see bashing BSN programs are those who could never make it through a BSN program. My university took 48 students, out of 1,000 applicants. My graduating class had a 100% pass rate on the NCLEX, and no physician has ever mistaken me for an ADN. After reading some of these posts, I am so proud that I chose an education over technical training.

Wow!!! This topic really got under someone's skin. I have seen good and bad in both ADN and BSN programs. I feel the nurse herself(himself) is more relevant. Do they want to continue learning? Are they willing to research an issue in their off time? I began my practice as an ADN (with 2 other Bachelor's degrees under my belt.) As I progressed through the BSN program it felt a lot more like busywork than practice. I have never felt the need to "toot my own horn" or put others down to be proud to be a nurse. I have never met a physician who cared which degree I had either. Once they became familiar with my skills, knowledge and work ethic they treated me as an equal (I accept no less.)
I hope that this discussion will die under the weight of it's own pomposity, but it is easy to see why we as nurses have to struggle as a profession. Petty bickering is not professional!

Neversettle71 wrote:Wow!!! This topic really got under someone's skin. I have seen good and bad in both ADN and BSN programs. I feel the nurse herself(himself) is more relevant. Do they want to continue learning? Are they willing to research an issue in their off time? I began my practice as an ADN (with 2 other Bachelor's degrees under my belt.) As I progressed through the BSN program it felt a lot more like busywork than practice. I have never felt the need to "toot my own horn" or put others down to be proud to be a nurse. I have never met a physician who cared which degree I had either. Once they became familiar with my skills, knowledge and work ethic they treated me as an equal (I accept no less.)
I hope that this discussion will die under the weight of it's own pomposity, but it is easy to see why we as nurses have to struggle as a profession. Petty bickering is not professional!

BRAVO!!!

:goodjob:

As an ADN grad working on my BSN after 15 years I was surprised to hear recently that the Diploma programs are still in business in Texas. 2 new ones are opening up. I work with several diploma grads who are excellent although greying now and in management. I guess my only concern with diploma nurses is that there is no where for them to go education wise until they get a university degree. Our clinical ladder requires nurses to be working toward a BSN or MSN or other related degree.

NavyJim58 wrote:As an ADN grad working on my BSN after 15 years I was surprised to hear recently that the Diploma programs are still in business in Texas. 2 new ones are opening up. I work with several diploma grads who are excellent although greying now and in management. I guess my only concern with diploma nurses is that there is no where for them to go education wise until they get a university degree. Our clinical ladder requires nurses to be working toward a BSN or MSN or other related degree.

As you know, the Army Nurse Corps is the only reserve nurse branch that accepts ADNs. However, to be eligible for Major in the ANC Reserves you need a BSN. After I completed my RN-BSN program I left the Reserve Component for Active Component, where BSN is required. In fact, I'll need a masters degree to be eligible for LtCol. However, if I retire as a Major I'll be okay. ;)

I see in this thread a lot of comparison between ADN and BSN programs. It's been said that ADN programs are short on this or that, and have more of something else, and BSN programs have less of something and more of something else when compared to ADN programs. This concept is foreign to me. Where I went to school you simply applied to the RN program. If you stopped taking classes after finishing requirements for the ADN then you were done, or could go on at a later time, or you could go all the way through and complete your BSN at one shot if you wished. But in order to go on into the BSN program it was required that you pass the NCLEX before the first semester of BSN classes were completed.

In other words, my school offers both programs with a great amount of flexibility. It's so logical that it never occurred to me that other colleges would do anything differently.

By the way, the previous posting by BSN2MSN makes a completely irrelevant point regarding a physician's opinion when it comes to ADN versus BSN. A physician's opinion of a nurse is no more relevant than a nurse's opinion of a physician. We work together, physicians and nurses, towards similar goals but from different directions. One is not superior or more opinion worthy than the other, both have equal value in the care of a patient. Nursing needs to move away from the very old idea that nurses are just physician's helpers.

[quote]I have never felt the need to "toot my own horn" or put others down to be proud to be a nurse. I have never met a physician who cared which degree I had either. Once they became familiar with my skills, knowledge and work ethic they treated me as an equal (I accept no less.)[/quote]

I could not have said it better myself. :goodjob:

When a nurse shows competence and confidence in his profession he will find that many physicians will come to him for answers. The academic degree that hangs on the wall is irrelevant to one's abilities, knowledge, or professionalism, as BSN2MSN unwittingly pointed out very well.:39:

Wow. This topic is heating up so it's time for me to jump in!!! LOL

(I love lively discussions!) :houra:

That comment, "...and no physician has ever mistaken me for an ADN," is just crazy. I'm not even going to comment.

All I can really add is my own experience. I have an ASN degree. I went to IU in Indianapolis. It's a big medical campus - big med school and big nursing program. It was extremely difficult to get into the ASN program. The lowest GPA they were accepting at the time was a 3.4. A lot of people that couldn't get into the ASN program went the BSN route. The BSN program was a lot easier to get into. The ASN program had a 98% NCLEX pass rate - my class was 100%.

I'm not saying that ASN's were "better" or BSN's were "worse" at all. I think the difference is just that the BSN degree offers more opportunities like working in administration, becoming a NP, etc. My original plan was to get the ASN, work at a hospital with tuition reimbursement and get my BSN - but that never happened. I had no interest in administration and BSN's were just making a few cents more an hour.

Tom

While I disagree with BSN2MSN that the ADN is a technical degree, personally I do believe Registered Nurses should hold a bachelors degree. We are professionals and should hold a 4 year degree. My pet peeve is with Nursing Schools only accepting the MSN and not another related healthcare field degree to teach Nursing. Normally unless they are hard up and need clinical instructors you can't teach in the classroom with a BSN only. Even if like me you have masters and doctoratal degrees in related areas.

I have heard the old stories of ADN nurses being more experienced and better at the bedside and BSN grads being paper pushers and clipboard carriers. I know some excellent BSN grads fresh out of school and some ADN grads who can't handle their load.

I once went to work part time for an ER in Maryland. Another new nurse in orientation with me had her BSN and MSN and had done some research and publishing and the educators and CNO at this hospital made a big deal about her going to work in their ER and how lucky the hospital and patients were to have her. She didn't last 3 complete days before quitting because she couldn't handle the work load. Education is important but there are a lot of other factors that contribute to the making of an excellent nurse.

thanks for listening