Is there REALLY a Nursing Shortage?

[lorianncw]

Is there REALLY a nursing shortage?
http://www.americanreformation.org/p...ngshortage.htm

This article makes a great point. When we have 600,000 certified, well trained American nurses that choose not to do nursing and 150,000 nursing applicant a year being turned down, we do NOT have a shortage.

The real shortage that exists is the amount hospital administrators are willing to pay in nursing salaries. If they increased nursing salaries, a number of American nurses would return to their profession. This would start to improve current nursing working conditions by reducing the patient workload. And as the working conditions improved along with the increases salary, more nurses would return....creating a positive cycle.

But hospitals have figured out that instead of raising nursing wages, they can just import foreign nurses who will be thrilled to make the current salary (or even less). And as long as foreign nurses are available, American nursing wages will remain stagnant despite increased costs of living.

Anyone agree?

I've heard US Truck Drivers have been in a similar situation. Their wages have been stagnant and too low for years. Although there is still a large number of newbies entering the field, the retention rate for experience drivers is low. Even though there are plenty of trained US truck drivers who have chosen to work elsewhere, the government is classifying the problem as a "shortage". Solution?....import Mexican truck drivers for $2/hr.

To find out if your Congressmen or Presidential Candidates support "guestworkers" or "large-scale importation of foreign workers" check out NumbersUSA:
http://www.numbersusa.com/index

[justatraveler]

Is there REALLY a nursing shortage?
H-1B Visas - Hire Americans - Richard Armstrong

This article makes a great point. When we have 600,000 certified, well trained American nurses that choose not to do nursing and 150,000 nursing applicant a year being turned down, we do NOT have a shortage.

The real shortage that exists is the amount hospital administrators are willing to pay in nursing salaries. If they increased nursing salaries, a number of American nurses would return to their profession. This would start to improve current nursing working conditions by reducing the patient workload. And as the working conditions improved along with the increases salary, more nurses would return....creating a positive cycle.

But hospitals have figured out that instead of raising nursing wages, they can just import foreign nurses who will be thrilled to make the current salary (or even less). And as long as foreign nurses are available, American nursing wages will remain stagnant despite increased costs of living.

Anyone agree?

I've heard US Truck Drivers have been in a similar situation. Their wages have been stagnant and too low for years. Although there is still a large number of newbies entering the field, the retention rate for experience drivers is low. Even though there are plenty of trained US truck drivers who have chosen to work elsewhere, the government is classifying the problem as a "shortage". Solution?....import Mexican truck drivers for $2/hr.

To find out if your Congressmen or Presidential Candidates support "guestworkers" or "large-scale importation of foreign workers" check out NumbersUSA:
NumbersUSA

There IS a nursing shortage. What difference does it make WHY there is a nursing shortage? If the power is off in my house does it make a difference if it's weather related, I didn't pay my bill, or a truck hit a pole. I still have no power. I also think the stats are skewed. Many nurses go on to become NP's CRNA's or mother hood. Yes they keep their RN license but they are not working at the bedside. Let's compare apples to apples. Many women and men have an RN license they might not be using at the bedside for numerous reasons.

As for money. I don't work in hospitals anymore. Haven't for 7 years and no amount of money could get me to go back. Money isn't every thing. I worked on a M/S floor with aides and a 4:1 ratio on days. I still wouldn't go back.

The crux of the matter is the job itself. Do you hear your IT friends complain about getting blood on their shoes, horrible smells, working nights, Xmas, etc. Do you hear your fashion designers c/o about being vomitted on?

No matter the amount of money a nurse gets she will still have to put up with rude patients and families. The patients dying and the fear of losing her/his livihood in the blink of an eye.

If a programer flubs up a program do they lose everything. NO.

Nursing is a unique profession. It has unique problems and solutions. I'll get flamed too but I see many new nurses who don't want to work. The work ethic is getting less and less. Even older nurses have fallen into this category to. IMHO.

Nursing is both physical, mental, and emotionally draining and I believe many students are not experiencing this. They don't realize how much true labor is involved in nursing care.

Again it makes no difference WHY we have a nursing shortage. The fact is we do.

[lorianncw]

Maybe I should clarify. I agree there is a shortage of nurses currently working. But, when there are 600,000 certified nurses and 150,000 nursing applicants/per year being turned down, there is NOT a shortage of potentially available American nurses.

There IS a nursing shortage. What difference does it make WHY there is a nursing shortage? If the power is off in my house does it make a difference if it's weather related, I didn't pay my bill, or a truck hit a pole. .

It matters because if the WHY is corrected or at least improved, the resulting shortage would also be improved! If the power is off in your house, wouldn't it be wiser in the long run to FIX the whether related damage or pay the bill, rather than running throughout the house lighting candles for the next 10 years. That is my point. Instead of attempting to fix the problems, they are putting on Band-Aids by hiring foreign workers *AND* they are suppressing the salaries for American nurses who are still working.

There are some nurses that LOVE what they do and other that HATE it. In some cases it may be personality fit related but in other cases it's work conditions/load related. For example, the nurses I knew in MA as a whole were A LOT happier than those I know in GA.

Coincidentally, the state of MA ranks 2nd in the country for the highest #of RN's per 100,000 people. There is also a very strong union there that fights for improved working conditions and higher salaries. There are RN's in MA making 80-110K for a 40 hr week.
http://www.massnurses.org/News/2006/10/globe-poll.htm

As opposed to GA, a state which is in a severe health care crisis, it has one of the lowest number of RNs per 100,000, and does not have a strong union, and has MUCH lower RN salaries.

Wouldn't you agree that these factors are contributing to the RN work satisfaction and supply disparity between these two states?

While its true there may be some who would never return to nursing for any amount of money, its also true that the majority of Americans are living in debt. The prospect of better pay in nursing than what they could make elsewhere would cause some to return.

This follows the simple laws of supply and demand..........

[justatraveler]

Maybe I should clarify. I agree there is a shortage of nurses currently working. But, when there are 600,000 certified nurses and 150,000 nursing applicants/per year being turned down, there is NOT a shortage of potentially available American nurses.



It matters because if the WHY is corrected or at least improved, the resulting shortage would also be improved! If the power is off in your house, wouldn't it be wiser in the long run to FIX the whether related damage or pay the bill, rather than running throughout the house lighting candles for the next 10 years. That is my point. Instead of attempting to fix the problems, they are putting on Band-Aids by hiring foreign workers *AND* they are suppressing the salaries for American nurses who are still working.

There are some nurses that LOVE what they do and other that HATE it. In some cases it may be personality fit related but in other cases it's work conditions/load related. For example, the nurses I knew in MA as a whole were A LOT happier than those I know in GA.

Coincidentally, the state of MA ranks 2nd in the country for the highest #of RN's per 100,000 people. There is also a very strong union there that fights for improved working conditions and higher salaries. There are RN's in MA making 80-110K for a 40 hr week.
Boston Globe Wants to Know if Nurses Deserve the Money they Earn - Weigh In and Tell them Why

As opposed to GA, a state which is in a severe health care crisis, it has one of the lowest number of RNs per 100,000, and does not have a strong union, and has MUCH lower RN salaries.

Wouldn't you agree that these factors are contributing to the RN work satisfaction and supply disparity between these two states?

While its true there may be some who would never return to nursing for any amount of money, its also true that the majority of Americans are living in debt. The prospect of better pay in nursing than what they could make elsewhere would cause some to return.

This follows the simple laws of supply and demand..........

I was just reading on MSN about an executive making 6 figures leaving his job to become an actor. Not an easy profession to break into.

My contention is that the stats don't tell us WHY these nurses aren't practicing at the bedside. As I pointed out previously NP's must continue to hold an RN license. They are working in nursing just not at the bedside.

Wild horses couldn't drag me into MA. Do you know what the housing costs are there? Do you know what taxes are like there. Do you know what it costs to park in Boston etc. Those nurses aren't making any more money vs the cost of living. Do you know that MA requires verification of every nursing license you have ever held? I hold/held 8 would cost me more to verify them than it would to pay for the license.

The unions tout what they can do for nurse. Let's look at their track record because I can't look into the future. They've about destroyed the auto industry in this country. Shoe manufacturers, pulp and paper, mining, etc.

Did you know that TEXAS is considered with it's COLA ( Cost of Living Assessment) the highest paid nursing state in the union. Many Texas nurses can't find work in their own state. They don't have a shortage. And they make in the $20. Not incentives $$$$ to bring them back into the fold. Ha they haven't left.

Nursing is an ultristic profession. Ya have to wanna. And that's just it. Many nurses don't wanna. And it won't make any difference what you pay them. You couldn't pay me to work in the coal mines. You couldn't pay me to work in a nuclear plant. Not every one can be bought. And I sometimes wonder if buying people off gives you the best employees.

Stopunions - Home

Again the stats you cite don't tell the whole picture. They don't ask why the nurse left. I didn't leave the hospital because I was paid poorly. And NO amount of money would get me back at the bedside there. Money may be a quick easy fix but it's not the be all end all. Many nurses leave to raise a family. Some feel their children are more important than a job.

Most of the states with hi incomes also have high costs of living. It really does equal out. And if the economy of a town or state knows it can get money from hi income people it certainly will.

Also, if nurses don't think there jobs can be outsourced they should think again. Many people in this country are going overseas for health care i.e. cabg, plastics, ortho procedures, etc and getting primo care and facilities in those countries.

How much money do you think insurances and the government should pay for healthcare. Is there an a unending source of revenue.

Get rid of the paper pushers, the endless stupid policies and procedures that have no basis in fact. Streamline service. Get rid of the numerous idle employees in a hospital. And then give the nurses a raise. Let them run the hospital. Give them the power. Not unions, executives, consultants etc.

Why does anyone go to a hospital. Not for doctoring, soft beds, great food. Those things you get outside a hospital. The MAIN reason for hospitalization is because you can't take care of yourself and your family can't or doesn't know how to. NURSING CARE is the PRIMARY reason for hospitalization. Therefore, nurses should be in charge of the hospital NO ONE ELSE. When you give someone the power and control over their environment and they take it and do a good job with it then you have found the solution to that problem

As long as nurses feel powerless over their own JOBS and their voices are taken away either by Management or Unions you will continue to have a nursing shortage.

The union can't produce Nurses any more than you or I can. That's a fallacy. And they don't want to many nurses in the hosptial either. They would lose their power. What would they take to the bargaining table then????? They would have a bunch of nurses who have great staffing every day. The union would have nothing to work with. Think about it.

I made 90K last year. And I'm not beholding to any Union, I didn't work in MA. I worked in PA, TN, and AZ none of which are high paying states. Look at the Cost of Living in MA. You can't buy a shack there for less than $300,000. MA HAS to pay those wages.

Sorry to say but GA also probably has a lower socio-economic population. Why aren't all those nurses running to MA. Probably several of them don't like snow. :houra:

California pays well but I could have a travel job there tomorrow and many nurses from AZ go there for 2 weeks, work and then go back to AZ for 2 weeks and don't work. I bet they list themselves as part-time workers in these studies. When in fact they are making full time pay in Cali. Cali has "great" union representation and they are still crying for nurses. They are the highest paid too. I had a fridge magnet that showed a shack and said at the bottom "$999,999.00 Fixer Upper" Do you know people rent out rooms in their homes in Cali in order to make their mortgages and they charge $600 or more a month.

More money paid to nurses will be paid out in higher costs of living.

[Aaron C.]

There is a shortage of nurses WILLING to perform the job of a nurse in a hospital setting.

That means, to me, that there is a nursing shortage.

The answer to the problem lies in the government increasing teaching salaries and putting an emphasis on education.

HOWEVER...

The REAL issue is PAY.

If you hire more teachers and pay them more money, you're going to have MORE NURSES with degrees, and you already have the nurses, they just aren't willing to do the work for the pay rate.

Producing more nurses via the education system will solve the problem of having the warm bodies to take the job.

IT WILL NOT increase the quality of care, in fact I believe it will suffer.
It will also NOT do anything but hurt the current salary level of nurses, which is already too low.

There's a reason I'm not working in the hospital right now.

It's because there's no way I'm getting paid enough to deal with communicable disease, bacteria, blood, urine, feces, vomit, etc. all while shorthanded, AND legally liable for my every single action down to what I had for breakfast, what kind of utensil I ate with, and what I had to freaking drink. (YES, that is an outlandish exaggeration of charting, but I think you get the point). Add to that irritable family members, and arrogant, unreasonable doctors, and you have a shortage of nurses willing to do the job...and you have me on a laptop at home (currently)

That's just my opinion, and I definitely can't speak for everyone.

I do think that most of us go into the profession with a passion to care for people and a positive attitude about doing our jobs and helping people, but other than the satisfaction of being there for someone going through a traumatic time and helping them recover both physically and emotionally, there isn't much left in the area of reward.

Sure, if you are a travel nurse getting paid 35 an hour plus housing and a travel allowance and working your hours at the destination of your choice, it might be VERY APPEALING.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good nursing jobs. There are a ton of great jobs out there, that you can look forward to going to, where you get paid well, have a great peer group that works together very will, with supportive admistration, etc. etc, BUT IT'S NOT THOSE JOBS GOING UNFILLED!

I should note that I'm an LPN, and not an RN, and I've only been licensed since August of '03 but I can assure you that my experience with nurses, their salaries, and their experiences goes WELL BEYOND THAT. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means, but I'd say I'm pretty close with my mother being a nurse, and owning a travel nursing company, and my work with her company before I went to nursing school, and my work with this website since I started school. You could almost say it's consumed me.

Sorry for getting on a rant here, but it bothers me how nurses get treated and how disrespected they are in terms of what they do and what pay they get, and the misguided stereotypes that go with them regarding both men and women.

[justatraveler]

There is a shortage of nurses WILLING to perform the job of a nurse in a hospital setting.

That means, to me, that there is a nursing shortage.

The answer to the problem lies in the government increasing teaching salaries and putting an emphasis on education.

HOWEVER...

The REAL issue is PAY.

If you hire more teachers and pay them more money, you're going to have MORE NURSES with degrees, and you already have the nurses, they just aren't willing to do the work for the pay rate.

Producing more nurses via the education system will solve the problem of having the warm bodies to take the job.

IT WILL NOT increase the quality of care, in fact I believe it will suffer.
It will also NOT do anything but hurt the current salary level of nurses, which is already too low.

There's a reason I'm not working in the hospital right now.

It's because there's no way I'm getting paid enough to deal with communicable disease, bacteria, blood, urine, feces, vomit, etc. all while shorthanded, AND legally liable for my every single action down to what I had for breakfast, what kind of utensil I ate with, and what I had to freaking drink. (YES, that is an outlandish exaggeration of charting, but I think you get the point). Add to that irritable family members, and arrogant, unreasonable doctors, and you have a shortage of nurses willing to do the job...and you have me on a laptop at home (currently)

That's just my opinion, and I definitely can't speak for everyone.

I do think that most of us go into the profession with a passion to care for people and a positive attitude about doing our jobs and helping people, but other than the satisfaction of being there for someone going through a traumatic time and helping them recover both physically and emotionally, there isn't much left in the area of reward.

Sure, if you are a travel nurse getting paid 35 an hour plus housing and a travel allowance and working your hours at the destination of your choice, it might be VERY APPEALING.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good nursing jobs. There are a ton of great jobs out there, that you can look forward to going to, where you get paid well, have a great peer group that works together very will, with supportive admistration, etc. etc, BUT IT'S NOT THOSE JOBS GOING UNFILLED!

I should note that I'm an LPN, and not an RN, and I've only been licensed since August of '03 but I can assure you that my experience with nurses, their salaries, and their experiences goes WELL BEYOND THAT. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means, but I'd say I'm pretty close with my mother being a nurse, and owning a travel nursing company, and my work with her company before I went to nursing school, and my work with this website since I started school. You could almost say it's consumed me.

Sorry for getting on a rant here, but it bothers me how nurses get treated and how disrespected they are in terms of what they do and what pay they get, and the misguided stereotypes that go with them regarding both men and women.

Aaron, MONEY is not gonna stop people from peeing on your new shoes, MONEY is not gonna stop people from swearing at you because they are NPO and you can't give them a drink, MONEY is not gonna make families be nice to you. Money is not gonna fix the nursing shortage in the long run. Only nurses who want to do this job can fix it.

Nurses have to want to do this job. Money might attract some intelligent people into the work fore. We already have them and from what I've seen the intelligent one's either won't work , literally, at the bedside or don't. So the group you will attract with money IMHO might not be the best nurses.

Let's face it. Our jobs are many times without appreciation from top to bottom .From management to the patient. Students need a work ethic drilled into them. They will have to work on their birthday, Xmas, Thanksgiving, Sundays. Nights. 12 hours or more in 24. etc.

Those are the reasons many get out of the profession. That's why I try to advocate an apprenticeship. CNA,LPN,RN. By the time you've been an CNA and an LPN for a year each you know then weather or not you can hack it.

There are just certain things many people won't do for love nor money. Nursing is one of them.

[lorianncw]

The REAL issue is PAY.

If you hire more teachers and pay them more money, you're going to have MORE NURSES with degrees, and you already have the nurses, they just aren't willing to do the work for the pay rate.

Producing more nurses via the education system will solve the problem of having the warm bodies to take the job.

IT WILL NOT increase the quality of care, in fact I believe it will suffer.
It will also NOT do anything but hurt the current salary level of nurses, which is already too low.

I agree that we need to pay teachers more so that we can educate more nurses.

But why do think more American nurses will decrease the quality of patient care? One of nurse's biggest complaints is that hospitals are short-staffed, resulting in nursing caseloads too large for the delivery of safe care. By increasing the staff, nurses will have a lighter case load, a much less exhausting shift, and a lower chance of making any patient errors.

As for the effect on nurse's salaries, I think our country has to somehow increase the number of working nurses. They way their doing it right now is by importing foreign nurses. I think THAT is FAR MORE DANGEROUS to American nurse's salaries than increasing the number of American nurses.

These foreign nurses use to make $2/hr in their country. To come here and make $35-40K annually is like a 900% raise. What’s even better is that sum of money is worth even more when they bring it back to their home country. Plus, these people are so poor and are making so much money here, they are willing to keep quite and take as much abuse as hospitals hand them. Furthermore, there are several foreign countries that are building nursing schools for the sole purpose of sending their graduates to the USA. As the supply of foreign nurses increases and our country becomes increasingly open to hiring illegal immigrants and foreign workers, I'm concerned that nursing salaries will not only be stagnant, but decline for both Americans and foreigners. After all, even making only $30K will seem like a lot to a foreigner from a third world country, so hospitals may be able to get away with this. And if nursing salaries decline, there will be more or a "shortage of American nurses" and a greater need to import foreigners. Its a cycle.........

I'd much rather see more fellow American nurses who's family's cost and standard of living is similar to mine and who would demand a similar amount of pay. Plus, as more Americans are employed and make more, its good for our economy.

Hypothetically, lets say they make efforts to improve working conditions and give nurses a 30% raise. The number of American nurses would start to increase and the work conditions/patient loads would improve. Even if the hospitals then started to lower the salaries, they would only be able to lower them so far before they started to experience problems with a "shortage" again.

But, if US hospitals start to have a large supply of foreign nurses, they will be able to decrease salaries a heck of a lot more before they experience a nursing shortage. And as American nurses quit....they can just replace them with more foreigners who are satisfied with making less than Americans.

[justatraveler]

I agree that we need to pay teachers more so that we can educate more nurses.

But why do think more American nurses will decrease the quality of patient care? One of nurse's biggest complaints is that hospitals are short-staffed, resulting in nursing caseloads too large for the delivery of safe care. By increasing the staff, nurses will have a lighter case load, a much less exhausting shift, and a lower chance of making any patient errors.

As for the effect on nurse's salaries, I think our country has to somehow increase the number of working nurses. They way their doing it right now is by importing foreign nurses. I think THAT is FAR MORE DANGEROUS to American nurse's salaries than increasing the number of American nurses.

These foreign nurses use to make $2/hr in their country. To come here and make $35-40K annually is like a 900% raise. What’s even better is that sum of money is worth even more when they bring it back to their home country. Plus, these people are so poor and are making so much money here, they are willing to keep quite and take as much abuse as hospitals hand them. Furthermore, there are several foreign countries that are building nursing schools for the sole purpose of sending their graduates to the USA. As the supply of foreign nurses increases and our country becomes increasingly open to hiring illegal immigrants and foreign workers, I'm concerned that nursing salaries will not only be stagnant, but decline for both Americans and foreigners. After all, even making only $30K will seem like a lot to a foreigner from a third world country, so hospitals may be able to get away with this. And if nursing salaries decline, there will be more or a "shortage of American nurses" and a greater need to import foreigners. Its a cycle.........

I'd much rather see more fellow American nurses who's family's cost and standard of living is similar to mine and who would demand a similar amount of pay. Plus, as more Americans are employed and make more, its good for our economy.

Hypothetically, lets say they make efforts to improve working conditions and give nurses a 30% raise. The number of American nurses would start to increase and the work conditions/patient loads would improve. Even if the hospitals then started to lower the salaries, they would only be able to lower them so far before they started to experience problems with a "shortage" again.

But, if US hospitals start to have a large supply of foreign nurses, they will be able to decrease salaries a heck of a lot more before they experience a nursing shortage. And as American nurses quit....they can just replace them with more foreigners who are satisfied with making less than Americans.

I hear you. But like I said I left the hospital with a 4:1 ratio and an aide. NO AMOUNT OF MONEY COULD GET ME BACK THERE. I dont't think it is all about money. It's about not working nights, it's about no being puked on, or pooped on etc. You are never gonna change that part of nursing. And the other bi**hing nurses all the time. Whining about how much work they had to do instead of just doing it.

On 60 minutes last night they reporting that SS will be totally bankrupt soon. I don't remember the year. Of course I don't believe it. They say that we have fewer workers to fund SS but the workers we do have don't make $4/hr like I did years ago. What they need to do is take the cap off of SS and make every one pay on every dollar they make. Or 10% or something like that.

I'd just hate so see nursing price itself right out of the market.

If our salaries go too high that's just more incentive to hire foreign nurses. It's a vicious cycle. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Wish we had the answers but I don't think we do.

[smarty77]

Of course, if patients die or have poor service from nurses that cannot speak English well (we have that at my hospital-they paid quarter of million for bunch of nurses from India, paid for their housing here, from what I hear they are making good salaries, too), there will be a backlash.
Let's face, our health system is screwed. Whether we have socialized medicine or private, it is a vast machine/bureacracy where the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.
By the way, I am not too unhappy with my salary, but the staffing is so dangerous and unsafe that it has become unbearable. I don't really mind poop, etc. I love caring for people. I hate working with nsg. assists. who don't care, and who add to my workload. I hate that people come into the hospital expecting me to fulfill their every wish and need, and don't seem to realize how overwhelmed we all are. It really angers me and demoralizes me.
I hate that nurses are portrayed as idiots on tv and that the news media panders to physicians to this day and calls anybody in scrubs a "nurse". I hate that nurses stand by and let others dictate/force feed these stereotypes to the public. As long as the public and pols do not understand our role other than as the hard working angel of mercy (no brains need apply), we will be screwed.

[justatraveler]

Of course, if patients die or have poor service from nurses that cannot speak English well (we have that at my hospital-they paid quarter of million for bunch of nurses from India, paid for their housing here, from what I hear they are making good salaries, too), there will be a backlash.
Let's face, our health system is screwed. Whether we have socialized medicine or private, it is a vast machine/bureacracy where the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.
By the way, I am not too unhappy with my salary, but the staffing is so dangerous and unsafe that it has become unbearable. I don't really mind poop, etc. I love caring for people. I hate working with nsg. assists. who don't care, and who add to my workload. I hate that people come into the hospital expecting me to fulfill their every wish and need, and don't seem to realize how overwhelmed we all are. It really angers me and demoralizes me.
I hate that nurses are portrayed as idiots on tv and that the news media panders to physicians to this day and calls anybody in scrubs a "nurse". I hate that nurses stand by and let others dictate/force feed these stereotypes to the public. As long as the public and pols do not understand our role other than as the hard working angel of mercy (no brains need apply), we will be screwed.

Yep and that's why NO AMOUNT OF MONEY will get many people to do the job.


Your "I love caring for people" says it all.

BTW I hold/have held 8 nursing license so we can subtract 7 from whatever figure there is for licensed nurses in this country not working in nursing. I can only do one job at a time. LOL