Is there REALLY a Nursing Shortage?

[justatraveler]

Of course, if patients die or have poor service from nurses that cannot speak English well (we have that at my hospital-they paid quarter of million for bunch of nurses from India, paid for their housing here, from what I hear they are making good salaries, too), there will be a backlash.
Let's face, our health system is screwed. Whether we have socialized medicine or private, it is a vast machine/bureacracy where the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.
By the way, I am not too unhappy with my salary, but the staffing is so dangerous and unsafe that it has become unbearable. I don't really mind poop, etc. I love caring for people. I hate working with nsg. assists. who don't care, and who add to my workload. I hate that people come into the hospital expecting me to fulfill their every wish and need, and don't seem to realize how overwhelmed we all are. It really angers me and demoralizes me.
I hate that nurses are portrayed as idiots on tv and that the news media panders to physicians to this day and calls anybody in scrubs a "nurse". I hate that nurses stand by and let others dictate/force feed these stereotypes to the public. As long as the public and pols do not understand our role other than as the hard working angel of mercy (no brains need apply), we will be screwed.

Hmmm skipppin right along here... hmmmmmmmmmmm Have to have 5 characters. Hope I have them all now...

[lorianncw]

Wild horses couldn't drag me into MA. Do you know what the housing costs are there? Do you know what taxes are like there. Do you know what it costs to park in Boston etc. Those nurses aren't making any more money vs the cost of living. Do you know that MA requires verification of every nursing license you have ever held? I hold/held 8 would cost me more to verify them than it would to pay for the license.

The unions tout what they can do for nurse. Let's look at their track record because I can't look into the future. They've about destroyed the auto industry in this country. Shoe manufacturers, pulp and paper, mining, etc.

More money paid to nurses will be paid out in higher costs of living.

I lived in MA for 6 years. You make an excellent point that the cost of living is higher there. But the nursing wages in MA are still proportionally higher than many other expensive parts of the country. The nursing wages in MA are also higher than many other MA career paths. Just because a city is expensive doesn't mean that every job is equally and proportionately paid more. In fact, because Boston is such a highly desirable place to live and there are so many college graduates, many jobs (not part of a union) pay LESS then what they do in cheaper parts of the country.

Many RN's make more than the NPs ! They also make more than MANY business executives. I new a number of people working in big accounting and finance firms. The average starting salary for a college graduate is about 30-40K, but most are working a 65-90 hours per week with no pay for overtime. After about 10 years of experience and earning an MBA, they're making 100K....but they're still working 60 hrs/week. Yes, there are a very select few who make it big and earn over $200K, but this is not the case for most.

So.... when you compare nursing to many other career fields in MA, nursing starts to look REAL attractive given the salary, work hours, and education costs required. This is why the nursing shortage in MA is so much less severe than other states.....and as a secondary result....its also why the nurses there are more happy.

I never met anyone in MA that complained about their union. Everyone I met LOVED unions because of the high pay and benefits.

I'm not personally familiar with Texas. However, based on the info I've read, TX has a large nursing shortage and their state is ranked in the bottom 10 for # of RNs per 100,000 people. But, maybe that info is incorrect..........

[lorianncw]

I'd just hate so see nursing price itself right out of the market.

If our salaries go too high that's just more incentive to hire foreign nurses. It's a vicious cycle. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Wish we had the answers but I don't think we do.

If the United States government obeyed our constitution and foreign visa laws.....that would not be possible. There is a national cap limiting the number of foreigners US hospitals and buisnesses can hire LEGALLY. Any expansion of that cap must be passed by our Congress.

The problem is that we are witnessing a US executive branch of government that is increasingly pushing for MORE visas, MORE guest workers, and MORE illegal workers. They do not care about patient safety, nor do they care about the American middle class. They are in bed with corporate elites who will see billions added to their bottom line by displacing Americans with cheap, foreign workers. They are acheiving this goal by taking one small step at a time. If this continues, nursing wages will not only remain stagnant....they will decline....
By importing foreign workers, Americans are opening the door to high vulnerability.

This is my whole point....I think Americans need to wake up, educate themselves about what's going on, where we are headed, and do their best to fight it before its too late.............

Have you heard the saying "War on the Middle Class".....this is the big picture I'm addressing......

[HeyFraydo]

There is a Shortage and it's not going away and it's going to get worse.

To get more Nurses we need more open spaces in Nursing schools to meet the demand along with more Nursing Instuctors, Grants , Recruitment etc.

To keep more Nurses we need better pay and better working conditions, better training, more efficient systems of patient management, better Nurse to patient ratios.

To see how bad the problem is ...despite the influx of foreign nurses the US Travel Nurse/Allied Industry is growing and there are no shortage of Travel Nurse Positions even in my field of Mental Health.

I heard a while back there was legislation if passed would open the flood doors to even more foreign nurses which I hope did not happen because this is a lose/lose situation.It's a temporary band aid that does nothing to fix the root causes and it takes away from those countries where the Nurses are coming from who have their own shortage problems and health care crisis.

CJ Travel Nurse Toolbox

[justatraveler]

I lived in MA for 6 years. You make an excellent point that the cost of living is higher there. But the nursing wages in MA are still proportionally higher than many other expensive parts of the country. The nursing wages in MA are also higher than many other MA career paths. Just because a city is expensive doesn't mean that every job is equally and proportionately paid more. In fact, because Boston is such a highly desirable place to live and there are so many college graduates, many jobs (not part of a union) pay LESS then what they do in cheaper parts of the country.

Many RN's make more than the NPs ! They also make more than MANY business executives. I new a number of people working in big accounting and finance firms. The average starting salary for a college graduate is about 30-40K, but most are working a 65-90 hours per week with no pay for overtime. After about 10 years of experience and earning an MBA, they're making 100K....but they're still working 60 hrs/week. Yes, there are a very select few who make it big and earn over $200K, but this is not the case for most.

So.... when you compare nursing to many other career fields in MA, nursing starts to look REAL attractive given the salary, work hours, and education costs required. This is why the nursing shortage in MA is so much less severe than other states.....and as a secondary result....its also why the nurses there are more happy.

I never met anyone in MA that complained about their union. Everyone I met LOVED unions because of the high pay and benefits.

I'm not personally familiar with Texas. However, based on the info I've read, TX has a large nursing shortage and their state is ranked in the bottom 10 for # of RNs per 100,000 people. But, maybe that info is incorrect..........

I poked around and Mass Gen has over 101 OPEN nursing positions. You couldn't get me to work in Boston. I live in Maine and in the summer the Mass people flock to Maine. Many own vacation spots there. I haven't even driven through Boston since they start that debacle of a BIG DIG.

Also I pulled up a salary comparison chart. In the $55k range MA was at 53% and GA was at 45%. Not really much difference in %'s there.

Texas does not have a nursing shortage. Many Texas nurses can't find work and have to leave and become travelers.

I've never seen the lure of MASS.. Again I don't think it's money per se that will keep nurses. So people won't do a job for any amount of money.
There are even some nursing jobs I won't do for any amount of money. I don't like the rush of ER, I'm afraid of taking care of babies, I walked to the delivery table with my second son so I have no sympathy for screaming moms, so no amount of money would get me into those areas of nursing.

Again I think the stats are skewed. I am "licensed" in 8 states. Am I being counted 8 times. I think alot of nurses take a break from nursing etc. I think some might be going to NP school etc.

I've seen too many things have money thrown at them and it didn't make things better. BTW the BIG DIG is prime example.

[ROE_Wedge]

Personally going into Nursing school myself i know what im getting into hour related wise. Working my birthday, holidays, etc or 12 hours plus doesnt really bother me that much considering that were pretty damn lucky to just have that happen to us. Other places in the world do not have it so lucky We get very selfish in America and always think "me me me me". I know it sucks and if you really dont like it then they dont need you there but some of you almost depress me with the attitude you take towards it. I agree with the first post and the nursing shortage being "temp fixed" by adding in foreign workers is very wrong in my book.

but i do see some good points being made from both sides.. life is just the attitude you throw towards it in the end

[lorianncw]

As I already stated ABOVE....I am not personally familiar with Texas and that info I cited could be wrong !

But you claim there's no nursing shortage in TX, huh....

Apparently the Texas Department of State Health Services disagrees...
http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/chs/cnws/
"In response to mounting concern about Texas’ nurse shortage, the 78th Texas Legislature, regular session, created a Nursing Workforce Data Section (NWDS) under the governance of the Statewide Health Coordinating Council (SHCC). "

So does the Texas Medical Center:
http://www.tmc.edu/tmcnews/05_01_00/page_03.html
"We are already 40,000 nurses short of what we need in Texas,

Also I never claimed that there was NO nursing shortage in MA....I stated that there is LESS of a shortage.

PLEASE SEE THIS LINK TO THE BOSTON GLOBE:
http://boards.boston.com/n/pfx/forum...709&redirCnt=1

"After striking for several hours yesterday morning, nurses at UMass Memorial Medical Center in Worcester were successful in contract negotiations over salary and health benefits.

The dispute concerned the management's plan to reduce what they called excessively generous nursing contracts. The average nurse, according to the hospital, working a 40-hour week makes $107,000 a year. "


HERE IS ANOTHER LINK TO THE MA Nurses Association:
http://www.massnurses.org/News/2006/10/globe-poll.htm
"We urge every nurse and family member to respond to this poll and tell them why you are indeed worth $100,000 per year."

In additioin, I personally know nurses in MA who are making 100K !

There also is a 3 year long waiting list just to get into a MA nursing school !!!

Justatravler - I'm done arguing with you on this post. Its seems that you HATE nursing and have missed the whole point of this post.

THE US GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE MAKING EFFORTS TO CORRECT THE PROBLEMS CAUSING THE NURSING "SHORTAGE". BUT INSTEAD OUR GOVERMENT IS HIRING FOREIGN WORKERS TO SERVE AS LOW COST BAND-AIDS. IN THE END, THE US NURSES, US PATIENTS, AND FOREIGN COUNTRIES WHO NEED THEIR NURSES LOSE OUT.

[justatraveler]

As I already stated ABOVE....I am not personally familiar with Texas and that info I cited could be wrong !

But you claim there's no nursing shortage in TX, huh....

Apparently the Texas Department of State Health Services disagrees...
Texas Department of State Health Services, Nursing Workforce Data Section
"In response to mounting concern about Texas’ nurse shortage, the 78th Texas Legislature, regular session, created a Nursing Workforce Data Section (NWDS) under the governance of the Statewide Health Coordinating Council (SHCC). "

So does the Texas Medical Center:
Texas Medical Center NEWS
"We are already 40,000 nurses short of what we need in Texas,

Also I never claimed that there was NO nursing shortage in MA....I stated that there is LESS of a shortage.

PLEASE SEE THIS LINK TO THE BOSTON GLOBE:
http://boards.boston.com/n/pfx/forum...709&redirCnt=1

"After striking for several hours yesterday morning, nurses at UMass Memorial Medical Center in Worcester were successful in contract negotiations over salary and health benefits.

The dispute concerned the management's plan to reduce what they called excessively generous nursing contracts. The average nurse, according to the hospital, working a 40-hour week makes $107,000 a year. "


HERE IS ANOTHER LINK TO THE MA Nurses Association:
Boston Globe Wants to Know if Nurses Deserve the Money they Earn - Weigh In and Tell them Why
"We urge every nurse and family member to respond to this poll and tell them why you are indeed worth $100,000 per year."

In additioin, I personally know nurses in MA who are making 100K !

There also is a 3 year long waiting list just to get into a MA nursing school !!!

Justatravler - I'm done arguing with you on this post. Its seems that you HATE nursing and have missed the whole point of this post.

THE US GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE MAKING EFFORTS TO CORRECT THE PROBLEMS CAUSING THE NURSING "SHORTAGE". BUT INSTEAD OUR GOVERMENT IS HIRING FOREIGN WORKERS TO SERVE AS LOW COST BAND-AIDS. IN THE END, THE US NURSES, US PATIENTS, AND FOREIGN COUNTRIES WHO NEED THEIR NURSES LOSE OUT.

Where do you get that I hate nursing. I've been a nurse for 26 years. I rarely do something I don't like for even an hour. Exercise comes to mind.
I made 90K last year without ever stepping foot in a hospital or MA.

All I'm saying is that MONEY is the end all be all for nurses. Many people won't do our job for any amount of money.

Look at public housing, the war on drugs, and many other entitlements. Did they succeed with the MILLIONS of dollars poured into them? NO

And where are you gonna get the 100K jobs for every RN in this country. Who's gonna ante up that kind of money? Do you know what our taxes would be if that happened?

You have one solution for the nursing shortage. ONE. It's a very complex issue.

I worked in hospital with a 4:1 M/S with and aide days. 3 twelves. Every third weekend and I LEFT. Now I work 3-5 12's a day. No Sundays. And I take care of 20 patients in the morning and 20 patients in the afternoon, and 8-10 in the evening. In all we have about 90 patients. I work harder now than I did in the hospital. The money's good but I did this job for the half the money five years ago.

All I'm saying is money is not gonna solve this problem

My son squeaked through HS. Spent 9 years in the USMC. And he cracked six figures last year at 29 years old. Been in his present job for 9 months. He doesn't get peed on, pooped on, doesn't work weekends expect when his on the road, makes $41 an hour, on salary but he gets paid for every hour he works. Why would he go into nursing for any 100K. I'll tell you why. Cuz he doesn't wanna.

Nursing is a job that you either love or don't love and more money is not gonna make most people love it who hate it. Prostitutes make good money in Nevada. I don't see alot of people flocking to that profession. Strip tease/club dancer make good money. I don't see a mass exodus from other profession into these professions.:frustrated:

I googled Average Homes Prices USA

This is the results
Boston: 1,260,000
Lexington: 729,500
Worchester: 340,966
Tauton: 460,950

Used to be banks advised 2.5 x Gross Pay now I think it's 3 x GP That would equal 361,000 as you can see their aren't many places to live at that price.

TX:
Fort Worth: 148,610
Houston: 151,600
Corpus Christi: 179,125
Dallas: 261,325
Plano: 183,750
If Texas nurses are making. $25 x 2080 ( 40 hrs x 52 weeks) that equals 52,000 x 3 =156,000 so there are several places they could afford.

Also I google Cost of Living States
MA 41,,, ME 38,,, SD 1,,, TN,,,, TX 4........... Again those Mass nurses need that kind of money to just live in Mass.

[justatraveler]

As I already stated ABOVE....I am not personally familiar with Texas and that info I cited could be wrong !

But you claim there's no nursing shortage in TX, huh....

Apparently the Texas Department of State Health Services disagrees...
Texas Department of State Health Services, Nursing Workforce Data Section
"In response to mounting concern about Texas’ nurse shortage, the 78th Texas Legislature, regular session, created a Nursing Workforce Data Section (NWDS) under the governance of the Statewide Health Coordinating Council (SHCC). "

So does the Texas Medical Center:
Texas Medical Center NEWS
"We are already 40,000 nurses short of what we need in Texas,

Also I never claimed that there was NO nursing shortage in MA....I stated that there is LESS of a shortage.

PLEASE SEE THIS LINK TO THE BOSTON GLOBE:
http://boards.boston.com/n/pfx/forum...709&redirCnt=1

"After striking for several hours yesterday morning, nurses at UMass Memorial Medical Center in Worcester were successful in contract negotiations over salary and health benefits.

The dispute concerned the management's plan to reduce what they called excessively generous nursing contracts. The average nurse, according to the hospital, working a 40-hour week makes $107,000 a year. "


HERE IS ANOTHER LINK TO THE MA Nurses Association:
Boston Globe Wants to Know if Nurses Deserve the Money they Earn - Weigh In and Tell them Why
"We urge every nurse and family member to respond to this poll and tell them why you are indeed worth $100,000 per year."

In additioin, I personally know nurses in MA who are making 100K !

There also is a 3 year long waiting list just to get into a MA nursing school !!!

Justatravler - I'm done arguing with you on this post. Its seems that you HATE nursing and have missed the whole point of this post.

THE US GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE MAKING EFFORTS TO CORRECT THE PROBLEMS CAUSING THE NURSING "SHORTAGE". BUT INSTEAD OUR GOVERMENT IS HIRING FOREIGN WORKERS TO SERVE AS LOW COST BAND-AIDS. IN THE END, THE US NURSES, US PATIENTS, AND FOREIGN COUNTRIES WHO NEED THEIR NURSES LOSE OUT.

Did you want to give some money to nursing schools to hire some faculty? Or did you expect the faculty to work out of the goodness of their hearts?

How can you throw money at something that doesn't exist. NURSES willing to work nights, holidays, Weekends, get peed on, pooped on, ragged on by family etc?

[justatraveler]

Here's an article of our peers. Not a group of consultants spewing stats.

NurseWeek: Can We Fix It? :: Page 2


Yes, it's old, but none of the ideas addressed there have been implemented on any scale.

And none of them advocated more money for nurses. More resources for education,yes.

Food for thought.